Dear Tanks

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Ender Mako, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. Scape

    Scape Crystal Brave

    523
    356
    26
    Yeah, thought it was a bit weird when they were talking about MRD/WAR being great with self heals. We have a lot of abilities that give HP back, but it's not anything I would rely on much. They work great when soloing, but not as much when some big angry boss is hitting you really hard. And most the time, I think it's a waste to use things like Storms Path, when you can be using your enmity combo instead. Inner Beast is the best healing but it will maybe heal back HP that is equal to one hit or even less from a boss. And then you just lost all your wrath using it.
     

  2. JeckylTesla

    JeckylTesla Crystal Brave

    291
    275
    24
    It's best used to hold for something like Ifrit's Breath, which you can IB > Infuriate and be at full stacks again.
     

  3. Mtzgr

    Mtzgr Adventurer

    49
    51
    16
    I don't know what this thread was initially about, but regarding WARs as tanks, it definitely feels (right now to me, anyway) as if something needs to be done to make them more viable in relation to PLDs. I don't play either, but as a healer, PLD damage is far more manageable. WARs have this huge health pool, but it doesn't really matter when the quarterback is getting sacked every down. It wasn't a huge deal in content like AK and HM Primals, but in Coil I'm just looking at his health bar, blowing cooldowns, and asking myself "What the f**k..." I'm not saying you can't clear the content with a WAR, I'm just saying why handicap yourself (though apparently they're redeemed in Turn 4).

    This is just the opinion of a shitty healer, but I know at least a couple tanks with similar sentiments.
     

  4. xusha

    xusha Scion

    1,643
    748
    31
    Now that I rolled a tank (finally!). I'm loving it. Though I have also realized with this, that majority of the Warrior tanks I have had to heal who were squishy never had their Defiance up. I'm like seriously? C'mon guys.
     

  5. kichwas

    kichwas Adventurer

    92
    34
    16
    Nor would I, as that would be working as intended.

    If a warrior tank is at full health - somebody is doing something wrong. You SHOULD be taking LOTs of damage. If you're alive at the end of the pull - it went well. A warrior eats damage and comes back with a heal that is enough to keep them up.

    As for the heals - I'm going by what I'm reading from warrior tanks who ARE tanking that higher content. And not just on a class they used once from a friend's account - but having studied it and looked at its meta to find out what you're supposed to be doing in a manner that is very different from what a paladin should be doing. These warriors, some of whom are in the links I provided, are not finding the self healing so limiting. But they gear for it too - mostly offensive with strength and crit, and they keep up buffs that others seem to think can't be kept up, such as 5 stacks of Wrath through a mechanic that instantly applies 5 stacks (Infuriate).

    I can't say that, if I were handed a 50 warrior next login, I'd be able to replicate what they do. Its not like that. The paladin may have a rotation, so anyone clicking the buttons in the right order can play it if handed a geared toon. The warrior doesn't have that - so you have to put in the time to get the mojo down.

    I'm reading them, noting that they're doing just fine with it, and as such setting the goal of following their footsteps in my path to figuring out the warrior meta and getting my 'mojo' down with it. Its NOT a pick up and play class.

    .
     

    MadwitTY likes this.
  6. Araye

    Araye Crystal Brave

    463
    287
    25
    So I made a major discovery last night.

    My poor tanking skills are not my fault. I'm actually a good tank. So say we all. My problem is, I have terrible latency at home.

    I played from the office and breezed the dungeon that had been plaguing me. I even got compliments that it went so smooth.

    But I don't know if I can change ISP in my area.

    What to do?
     

  7. Scape

    Scape Crystal Brave

    523
    356
    26
    As a WAR, you are highly over rating our self healing. By a long shot. Just what heal are you talking about when a WAR "eats damage and comes back with a heal that is enough to keep them up"?. If I still have a decent amount of health, sure I can top it back off perhaps. I am not dropping huge heals that can sustain myself through a hard hitting boss fight though.

    Mages, I don't mind if my health is full. Just don't worry about it until it starts getting below 50%.
     

    xusha likes this.
  8. JeckylTesla

    JeckylTesla Crystal Brave

    291
    275
    24
    The heal those WARs are talking about are Inner Beast, that's it. They use it to soak one big damage hit. For an Inner Beast to be available, we need 5 wrath stacks. We get wrath stacks from doing one of our combos. So Heavy > Skull > Butchers gives us 2 wrath stacks. So we need to do 3 combos to get us up to 5 stacks. That's roughly 20 seconds. They did not once state that Bloodbath or Storms Path being the source of their life steal, because it doesn't. It only heals for a decent amount when you pop two other CD's with it.

    Now the problem is, they may be able to soak up one big burst damage hit, but the rest of the damage that comes out by the boss is unmitigated and hits like a truck whereas it does much less damage to a PLD. That is a fact. Now the problem here is not that we are useless, we are far from useless, but we need to be refined.

    Stacking STR is good, but that only means you're going to have less HP for the points where you can't rely on lifesteal. I know there are WARs that have done end content, but the class needs refining. At the least, Storms Path needs some sort of mechanic to increase the healing of it. And make us be able to use Inner Beast at ANY wrath stack, but change the healing. Either that, or simple make Inner Beast a stackable shield.

    IB being a stackable shield would simply make it so much better and make them much more refined.

    Note: I main a WAR. I've tanked and hardcore raided in many other games, min-maxing to the limit as a tank multiple time, so I'm not the type of person to look at one or two things and think "it's too hard. It's easier being a PLD" and switch. I too look into how WARs should be build, and the truth of the matter is, a boss that hits quick and hard with very little burst ability, will have WARs struggling to tank it where PLDs won't.

    It's all going to be based on Crystal Tower, me thinks.
     

    MadwitTY likes this.
  9. Ender Mako

    Ender Mako Adventurer

    158
    52
    19
    Don't worry yall i'll keep you alive ;)
     

  10. jemsmck

    jemsmck Adventurer

    150
    70
    19
    Depends on who your ISP is and what kind of internet you currently have.

    First and foremost, reboot your modem and router. Doing this can solve most latency related issues. Also check to see if you are downloading or uploading anything. This can also cause major lag is you are trying to do it while playing.

    If you have cable, you may be able to boost it a bit. You can call your ISP and tell them you want faster internet than what you currently have. Be aware though, that it will cost you extra per month.

    If you have DSL...get cable internet.
     

  11. SoMuchSen

    SoMuchSen New Member

    1
    1
    9
    As a PLD, my biggest issue is this:
    DPS not following marks. DPS/Heals not watching where they are. (Pulling other mobs nearby while fighting the current pull). And lastly: Healers dps'n until I have roughly 150 hp on a 4-pull or boss fight. I mean, if you can heal 1700 hp with a single .2 second cast of Cure, then go for it. But I haven't come across that phenomena yet.
    Adressing the OP though:
    There are a lot of "noob-ish" tanks out there. That is to be expected with the launch of any new MMO. However, there's a difference between being inexperienced and being dense. Your afformentioned description would lead me to the latter of the two. I will agree with one of the other PLD's here in that the hate system is a little boinked though. There's been the occasion where I will toss Flash 3 times in a row after shield lobbing the initial mob, and still, before anyone has attacked another target, one will inevitably run off and I have to chase it down.

    Now, for the cases in which DPS/Healer gets aggro... do... not... run... away... from... your... tank. (period)
    It may not be the wisest to run straight at your tank (especially in boss fights where the boss may inadvertently smack you with an AoE if you hug the tanks arse), your best bet is a circular kite around the tank until the tank is able to pull the hate off of you.

    To this end, happy hunting and see you in game.
    -Sen (Hyperion)
     

    xusha likes this.
  12. caucel

    caucel Crystal Brave

    927
    592
    27
    I use one single mark on the mob that I need party attack if you use multiple marks is most possible that people jumping between mobs.

    All here are noob speaking about a game that have a moth for release. Tank other mmo don't make you understand the ff enmity and tank system. I think people need read a lot about their job.

    I love being pld too, ;-)
     

  13. xusha

    xusha Scion

    1,643
    748
    31
    Okay I know I read this tip hundreds of times before, but I never understood it until recently (Slow much, Xusha?)
    But the enemy list, it shows agro. So healers (Especially you White Mages!) watch that. I don't pay attention to the shapes, but of course green = good, yellow = at least 50%, orange = almost agro (maybe 80%?), red = you got agro!
    So when you see this, use Shroud. I always mention it in party if I'm about to get agro.
     

    caucel likes this.
  14. caucel

    caucel Crystal Brave

    927
    592
    27
  15. xusha

    xusha Scion

    1,643
    748
    31
    Hah it's been mentioned too many times, though I don't recall them mentioning it on enemy list. So I was always confused.
    While healing one time I noticed that, and was like, hey... this is extremely useful!

    So tab targeting as a tank (if on PC) is pretty much pointless. Click on the enemy list and you're good to go c:
     

    caucel likes this.
  16. Reneo

    Reneo New Member

    1
    0
    7
    I haven't read the rest of the post yet but as a healer I gauge the party and the tank's gear and heal accordingly. For example, a tank has 600 health in lower levels, my gear ,even with level sync, I know I'll be able to aggro off the tank if I heal if their health is 500 so I heal around a little bit past halfway of 500 while waiting for incoming damage as a WHM.I just adjust to the tank because they have a pretty damn hard job in my opinion.
     

  17. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

    Server:
    Zalera
    1,232
    1,768
    64
    Looks like an ancient thread being necroed here!
    No worries, Reneo, most tanks on this forum are probably doing fine with their aggro :)
    GLA/PLD don't have much problems anymore after they buffed Flash... Flash spams actually can work at lower level GLA, and Circle of Scorn are just awesomolicious for any level 50 PLD.
    MRD/WAR never have a problem with aggro anyway since they have Overpower.
     

  18. DarkAshelin

    DarkAshelin Crystal Brave

    39
    62
    21
    I guess I must be extremely lucky... I am currently up until Titan Ex in the storyline as healer and I progressed almost solely through Duty Finder. I had maybe 2-3 premade parties so far over my entire gametime.
    I never had any major issues with any pt members so far. I once had a tank that was overpulling, but he stopped doing so when I asked him to. Also never had any majorly bad parties and most of the time my party members are really friendly.

    Granted, I myself don't know what I'm doing half of the time either, but we survive and have fun, and that's what's important right?

    I completely agree. Just yesterday I had a premade FC dungeon party for Praetorium (my first premade party there) and I was playing as I always do: Make sure the party is healed and buffed, and when I get the chance I switch to Cleric stance and help DPS a bit. About 10 minutes in, someone commented "wow we're going so fast, nice dps" and I replied with "that's because we're pretty much 5 DPS ;)"

    At that point 2 of the pt members pretty much exploded at me and demanded that I no longer touch any attack skills nor cleric stance. And I quote "You better listen to xx, she is the best healer ever". Keep in mind that no party member's HP had even dropped below 90% at that point.
    But those 2 party members just wouldn't get off my back. It made the run very stressful and frustrating to me.
    I asked the other healer after the party whether he found it annoying that I was DPSing, and whether he had any MP struggles or would have wanted me to help out more, and he said everything went fine. After all, whenever there was a bigger pull I did switch out of cleric stance and just heal.

    I'm always all ears for any explanations or advice, because I know I'm still just a newbie, but don't go shoving your playstyle down my throat. Especially if you don't even have any solid arguments to support it. "There are dungeons where a boss can do 90% hp damage in 1 hit" is hardly a reason for me to never use cleric stance in any dungeon ever.

    I am slowly reading through all the posts here and I must say I learned a lot already. Things like this ^ They are really not obvious to most players and we won't know unless we're told.
    Why is there no guide explaining all these things in details, with all the little tips and tricks on how to be the best possible party member? It would be very helpful.
    I'm thinking of maybe creating a guide like this, since I really like writing guides and consider myself pretty good at writing understandable explanations. The only thing is that I'm still pretty newbie and would need to rely on whatever you guys tell me :D

    I... I've been doing Stone Vigil multiple times with DF, and never saw any mobs being put to sleep ._. We didn't have any trouble though?
     

    Last edited: Jan 7, 2015
    MadwitTY likes this.
  19. DarkAshelin

    DarkAshelin Crystal Brave

    39
    62
    21
    So I was doing ST yesterday and had a tank with i110-120, however his HP always kept dropping drastically all of the time. It would just take 2 seconds for him to get from 100% HP to 30%.
    It wasn't my first time in ST, and on my previous runs I had also seen tanks like that, but I had also seen tanks with i90-100 who's HP barely dropped, despite their gear.

    Why is this? Since this was ST, I don't think you can speak of an overpull since there's usually just not that many mobs on the field. Is there a difference between tanking responsibilities depending on which party/alliance you're in? As in: does the Alliance A tank take more damage than the other tanks? Or is this perhaps a difference of classes?

    I asked the tank after the run about it, but he just replied "because you are a bad healer". I asked him if I did anything wrong after which he went silent, so yeah... not exactly helpful.
     

  20. GeekMatt

    GeekMatt Moderator

    Server:
    Brynhildr
    1,933
    1,873
    58
    There are three tanks in ST, only one has to do anything. The other tanks barely take any damage and do the least amount of work of anyone there. Also, Warrior's don't have the mitigation that Paladins have so their hp drops more quickly, but they're able to regenerate it.

    Lastly, usually if I notice a big difference in how hard it is to heal fights like that, it's due to how much the other healer is doing. In ST, just overheal, keep Adlo and Succor up more, it's not a big deal.
     

Share This Page