End Game Irritation

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AgelessDaisy, May 29, 2014.

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  1. That's right it's Molls

    That's right it's Molls Crystal Brave

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    I actually am in a very large LS of mostly new people to help out. It's a ton of fun. I get to run content the way I like pretty often that way. It was cool to clear T4 in 2 runs on WAR, without watching a video, albeit much later than most folks cleared it. :)
     

  2. Canis-Volk

    Canis-Volk Adventurer

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    I need to experience the fight to learn. But you know the end game Elitetst CAN'T have that because they have to help a beginner. I was morbidly afraid of Braflox but a NICE summoned help the parties hand and guide us through the fight. The only issue we had was the final boss. I just think that the end game Elitetst don't WANT to HELP other who are new. While that's kind of fair it's also toxic way of playing the game.
     

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  3. Ingrid

    Ingrid Crystal Brave

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    You see unlike some people I do not have the kind of time on my hands to deal with people who refuse to take criticism. I have a career that demands I'm there every day even on holidays. I would love to take the time to chip away at the growing backlog that is my game collection but I have to pay my bills. All I'm saying is why should I have to waste what little time I have trying to deal with people who literally have infinite resources to learn the fight.

    The fact of the matter is the modern gamer just wants their free and easy win without having to actually work for it. This is one of those games where one person can ruin the entire flow of a dungeon. Unlike other MMOs you are not a lone wolf hero who can aggro a whole room sit in the corner and go AFK as the rest of your team picks the entire mob apart.

    Who are we to tell anyone else how to play? Well who are you to try and act like a martyr for "the little people"

    If those of you want to be the voice of the lazy and defender of Newbie Justice go do it somewhere else and don't waste my time.
     

  4. Gara Bloodreaver

    Gara Bloodreaver Scion

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    True but then there's everything else one can df.
     

  5. Gara Bloodreaver

    Gara Bloodreaver Scion

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    Point is there are other ways to get experience without having to sneak into a farm/kill group in pf. They are in a sense like a job posting. They are looking for someone with a specific set of skills from the get go to get the job done. Isn't that why pf was implemented in the first place. If I put up a posting for an IT guy and a plumber showed up, I'd turn him away.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2014 ---

    I just read this in Fybriles podcast voice.
     

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  6. lkxyz

    lkxyz Crystal Brave

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    Agreed, OP was never about how you learn a fight, but rather people trying to fake their resume by sneaking into a PF looking for experienced players instead of newbies.

    There is nothing wrong for a PF wanting an experienced player nor is there anything wrong to learn in a fight instead of watching videos.

    Just don't mix up the two.
     

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  7. Canis-Volk

    Canis-Volk Adventurer

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    It only becomes a problem when I or any beginner go to a new dungeon and get harassed for not knowing it.
     

  8. Balaur

    Balaur Crystal Brave

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    Grimus, that was an EXCELLENT example of a strawman argument! I appreciate your effort to educate those reading these posts who would otherwise ignore long discussions so that they can read into the echo chamber of their own little cliques. Now that your readers know what a strawman representation of my argument looks like, perhaps you'd like to actually bother discussing what I wrote and not your fantasy of it?
     

  9. That's right it's Molls

    That's right it's Molls Crystal Brave

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    and this happens a lot, so people sneak into farm parties in an attempt to avoid it.
     

  10. Gara Bloodreaver

    Gara Bloodreaver Scion

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    That only makes it worse. I'd rather Df a fight I dont know if its available, catch flak there knowing the chances ill run into those people again are slim or start/join a learning party. If anyone goes into df hoping to clear harder content without hiccups are dreaming anyway.

    I am, compared to my other classes, new to tanking in this game, so in an attempt to learn how to tank turn 4 I DFed it. Let them know from the start I was new to tanking it even though I've cleared it as dps plenty. Failed once, caught flak, failed twice and I got ripped into and they rage quit. /shrug I got what I came for, more experience than I had previously. DFed again and got a new group, nailed it on the second try. If only the first group had just stuck it out another try. Coincidentally they were from my server and I saw them in pf looking for more party members after I successfully tanked t4.

    Dont let someone else ruin your learning experience, if their criticism isn't constructive (you suck, you screwed us over, gtfo noob etc) then they deserve to be ignored and anything they say be taken with a grain of salt.
     

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  11. lkxyz

    lkxyz Crystal Brave

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    If you DF, then expect the wild kingdom. Lions, tigers, cheetahs, oh my.
     

  12. Ingrid

    Ingrid Crystal Brave

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    If it were up to people like you we would HAVE to tolerate bad players and help them even if it takes all day. If we all had to stop and take the time to help the entire XIV community would be stuck at Titan EX
     

  13. CJ_pt

    CJ_pt Crystal Brave

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    This takes me back to another discussion :p

    The right way of joining DF parties is to just lower your expectations to the minimum and go with the flow... You'll get experienced, elitists, new people, noobs, terrible players and, sometimes, awesome people.

    Then again, it's a roulette, so I think it's the only place where you don't get the right to "demand" anything from other people, which is the exact oposite of PF groups and probably (one of) the reason why this was created.
     

  14. Balaur

    Balaur Crystal Brave

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    This is a false dichotomy. It has never, ever been about faking and unwilling to try to pick up some experience as opposed to willing to doing so.

    This is about the method by which people are required to have done so. That there is a "watch the videos, noob!" mentality as a prerequisite, as well as an exclusionary process. This attitude actually was not so prevalent during 2.0 with the first Coil as it is now. Yes, the fights are more complicated, and yes, they require you to do more s**t, be more coordinated. But the degrees of exclusivity being installed into the content is wholly unique to the Second Coil. The arguments of being left out of these new turns, while having completed Twintania, is put to a whole 'nother level.

    People in PF demand that they not have to deal with even one wipe. "One wipe = kick." "Fail = kick." As if they never spent a night wiping before, even after clearing that content. Because you fear death. My advice is to get over the idea of wiping to clear content. You'll charish the smooth flows so much more when they happen, and stop grieving for the slowness when you have to guide someone less skilled or knowledgable. It's a f*cking game.
     

  15. lkxyz

    lkxyz Crystal Brave

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    Exactly, do not hold any expectation in DF, if you do, then you must be delusional.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2014 ---
    It's a game to you, but maybe not a game to others. Why do you feel like you have to control how OTHER people play their GAME?

    Just live and let live.

    I have no control over other people's way of doing things, I see a plenty of PF that I do not like, thus I do not join them. Hey, but this is your thing, so I will stop here.
     

  16. Fybrile

    Fybrile Administrator

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    Let's try to keep the ad hominem to a minimum please.

    Hominem... Minimum.... Heh, that rhymes :)
     

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  17. Balaur

    Balaur Crystal Brave

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    This is the core of the problem, and one I (tried to) address:

    Not everyone CAN learn this way. You do not learn to ride a bike by reading a manual or watching a vid: You get on it, you move, and you learn to hold your balance while riding on a gyroscopic contraption. You fall, sometimes very frequently, until you learn not how to. Riding a bike is quite actually the process of learning to move without falling on an area less stable than your own two feet. It's not easy when you start.

    Learning a game, like Contra or Super Mario Brothers, or whatever, is a process of overcoming repeated failures. It's about accomplishing difficult tasks and coming out ahead. People "in the day" looked HEAVILY down on Game Shark users for using cheats to defeat games ("content") instead of learning them the long way, thus skipping over much of the game's actual content. Anyways, enough with the analogies.

    --

    The argument as stated, abridged (but the rest is chaff with little relevance):
    "Please watch video guides before joining in on farm groups or at most please make your own party for learning. I am sick and tired of players who literally have to cheat the iLevel set in a PF just so they can fake it until they make it."

    No explanation of the actual "cheat," or of "faking." We're talking about switching out an accessory or maybe a leg piece to get through the gate -- especially when the threshhold is set either than the ilvl requirement the game requires for the content, which is part of that fear of death I noted before. For example, my friend decided to set up a farm party for Garuda EX (ponies!) and I wanted the ring for BRD. BRD is i88, thanks to the Darklight Ring of Aiming, but otherwise i90, which just happened to be the threshhold (to queue for it, you need ave i65). So I had to come in as i91 BLM, then asked to switch to BRD. I "cheated." He said it was okay, though. The other BRD who queued had a better ring (Turn 9 progressers), so no competition!

    Moreover, Daisy specifically mentioned video guides. Not just walkthroughs, tutorials, etc. What are we supposed to do, memorize this in one sitting? Later, someone asserts spending 15 minutes watching a vid. None of you spent that much time and managed a perfect run. It's a demand for a degree of perfect skill that you certainly never evidenced on your first run.

    As a final point on this, there's that "farm groups" qualification. Virtually ALL PF parties for EX primals or Coil are "farm groups" with "experienced" restrictions. Those few that are not are so rare maybe two will pop in a day, and they fill FAST. The desperation for any level of experience is an insatiable level of hunger. If we all "became experienced" from 15 mins on a vid, this wouldn't be an issue. If the demand for flawless execution weren't so high, when the groups are prone to disbanding on a single wipe -- as they are NOW with 15% Coil buff in Turn f*cking Four -- then no amount of vid watching will help. This is, ultimately, the entire problem with Daisy's argument. It demands an unreasonable level of perfection, all for fear of failure. I repeat:

    It's a f*cking game.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2014, Original Post Date: May 30, 2014 ---
    This may be part of the problem. Regardless of the fear of sounding condescending, it's an MMORPG, the "G" standing for "gaem." It is, by definition, a thing you sink your money into in which you spend time to derive enjoyment. The lack of enjoyment comes from others making more of it less fun. I thoroughly enjoyed Coil, and grinding through it, but I felt tempered by my experiences. My first clears for Tursn 1, 2, and 4 were all PUGs; but I later got into a static after months of waiting and eventually got to start farming these Turns, but at the same time OTHERS in the static were learning. The more experienced amongst the players, some of whom had all items they wanted from Turn 5, were there to help out, teach, and were immensely patient. It was even more satisfying when, after struggling in Turn 2 for almost a month, our group downed Turn 4 in a day on attempts, being told by the FC's other static we'd probably be taking weeks on it, too.

    I learned LONG ago (EQ, FFXI, WoW, TERA, now this; but not just in games, but actual LIFE) that patience is the better teacher in all things. People will make mistakes when they feel others are condemning them, excoriating them for what are often minor problems. Players who set the bar so high have lost patience. Maybe THIS isn't the game for THEM. But I do not tell them how to play with their own time, just tell them not to demand others play for their sakes' -- and that is certainly not hypocrisy.

    ---


    I think ultimately that's all I can say on this matter. This isn't about elite vs casual, and it never was; I never raised these terms. This is about playing a game and having fun and not being an insufferable prick to others. About not not lowering your expectations, but realizing that you yourself couldn't climb the pedestal you're standing on. It's about patience, and accepting defeat and struggling on. Enjoyment. Have fun, in whatever manner seems fitting for you.
     

  18. Grimus

    Grimus Scion

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    If you think at all that my response was a straw man tactic in the slightest then you have very skewed perception. As for cliques.. mine left these forums largely a long time ago. I don't care who reads my posts, I post for myself.
     

  19. lkxyz

    lkxyz Crystal Brave

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    It's ok man, some people have issues, issues deeper than a video game.
     

  20. AgelessDaisy

    AgelessDaisy Scion

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    Well now that I am at a proper computer and not on my phone I must repeat myself once again. I could care less about new players, let them do what they want on their own time. The issue was players who know they are new to a fight and sneak into clear groups.
    I don't care how you learn the fight as long as you're not hindering the progress of myself or others, then I won't care. Simple. A lot of people took my words to heart and therefore lashed out in a way that wasn't needed in the first place.
     

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