Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GeekMatt, Oct 1, 2015.
Agreed the weapons should be more individualized in stats and in story.
You're missing the point I'm making. Let me put it another way. Sure, there are times when people complain simply because the class changed and got harder, and they can't handle it anymore. They complain because they're not able to push out top DPS anymore because they're not good enough. In that case I totally agree with you, they need to adapt and improve, or stop playing.
But most the time, the people complaining are not having trouble pumping out top DPS. They're still hitting the big DPS numbers - difficulty simply isn't their problem. Their problem is that the change to their job's play style has made it much less enjoyable for them. The change in Dragoon has made it slightly less enjoyable for me, but not major enough to go nuts over it. If I were playing Bard, I would probably be complaining hard because it's less enjoyable now.
By that logic, nobody should ever criticise any game ever, they should just not play it. That wouldn't get us very far.
I think anyone that doesn't get many player's complaints about BRD either just doesn't get it, or they like the changes. In the case of the former, they should probably avoid making opinions about things they don't understand. Makes em seem a bit pedantic at best, ignorant at worst. In the case of the latter, I'm truly happy that some players like the changes. Sacrificing the run & gun play style for beefier DPS could definitely be your cup o' tea, and to that I'm glad SE went in your direction. But, I'd also wonder why you didn't just go Black Mage if that was your preferred play style.
And, I think that's what's at the center of the issue. Play style. You see, I - and many, many others like me - chose Archer all the way back in the day before Jobs because we preferred the play style. We happily accepted less DPS for more mobility. That's the key decision we made years ago. Some players like leveling up all the jobs on one character, so they enjoy playing more roles and thus this decision doesn't impact them as much. I, on the other hand, only play one job - at max two - on a single character. That's a perfectly acceptable play style, since SE gave us the freedom to create alts. I chose my BRD character as my main, because that's the character I liked most, and the play style I liked best. Then, years later, they ignore our original defining decision and play style preference completely (a play style, I might add, that is synonymous with Archers/Rangers/Hunters genre-wide), they remove run & gun for more of a BLM-esque play style, and we're just supposed to accept it happily without comment. Even worse, if we do opt to bitch and complain, we're met with idiotic remarks like "If you don't like it, unsubscribe". I'm sorry for calling it an idiotic remark, but I think that's exactly what it is.
I've got a better ultimatum for you. If you don't like BRDs bitching and complaining that their job has fundamentally changed in 3.0, ask more pertinent questions. If you don't get it, or you can only equate adverse opinions with lack of skill, it might be better to avoid the conversation all together because your perspective couldn't be qualified as even two-dimensional. I can't imagine that anyone with an ounce of understanding couldn't recognize that the job fundamentally changed, and that those of us that preferred BRD above all else, might be perturbed at the watering-down of our job. Or, as any objective observer can see, the watering down of all roles into a generic four. Remove MNK's mobility, add a timer for 90% of their abilities, top it all off with the most obnoxious two-dollar sound effect you can find, and see if the playerbase at large wouldn't empathize more with them than with BRD's exactly-the-same situation. What I see is basically just a minority of players that equate playing an archer as having no skill (also a genre-wide belief), which is laughably ignorant.
I can tell you, without hesitation, that my finely-tuned rotation pre-3.0 was a hell of a lot more difficult to execute than the new version of the job. Skill or difficulty has nothing to do with it. If anything, I and players like myself are complaining that the rotation is RIDICULOUSLY EASIER. Before, to optimize our DPS with our other roles in a given fight, we had to expertly weave Off-GCD skills with our GCD skills. Buffs, Raid Buffs, Dots, OGCD attacks, we were CONSTANTLY lobbing something at the enemy. There wasn't a moment in a fight where I didn't have a new skill to execute. Now, it's best if I just put up my DoTs and run the same three skills over and over again. Exactly BLM's playstyle. You couldn't be more wrong if you think BRD's don't get the new changes. They're faceroll easy.
If you can't see that fundamentally changing how a job plays - we're not talking about a few new skills that require a new rotation, or a powerful new skill that changes our role in a party, we're talking about radically altering the play style of the class you chose, for many players directly into the exact same play style of the class you specifically DIDN'T choose - years into the life cycle of an MMO could warrant a bit of bitching and complaining, I don't really know what to say to you. I'd hope that you could adjust your perspective to understand the issue is much greater than you're giving it credit for. To say "If you don't like it, you don't have to play", especially to someone who is as dedicated to this game as I am, is just f*cking ridiculous. Take a look at what I do for FFXIV and you think the game would be better WITHOUT players like me?
IMO, it's players bitching and complaining that make it a BETTER game. From my perspective as a web designer for this and various other sites, I feel good at the accolades for a job-well done, but its the just criticisms that I truly appreciate to show me the err in my ways. SE's a LOT better at their job than I am at mine, so you can imagine just how expertly they are able to deal with negative feedback about one of their decisions. They don't need white knights. They certainly don't need players plugging their ears and telling others with more constructive opinions to shut up. They need feedback, which bitching and complaining definitely qualifies as.
/drops the mic on the floor and walks off stage
Isn't BRDs primary job to support the party and do as much dps as possible? The BRD changes seems to be hybrid between BLM and SMN where you keep your dots up and "Bane," or Sidewinder in BRDs case. It's definitely different than BRD pre 3.0.
BRD seems like fun in Heavensward and I actually might pick that up as my main DPS class on my alt.
They already did what they did to BRD and MCH and I seriously doubt they are going to undo it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you suppose to be stance swapping and not in Wander's Minute full time?
Perhaps it's time to move onto somethings else if you are that unhappy with the changes. SE is a large company and has many people working on projects so they should be better at their job than one individual. Yet they actually don't take criticism well on their forums. It's meet with a swift ban. Which is why many of us are here and not there.
I'm not into 3.0 endgame yet (doesn't seem like much of an endgame to rush to atm), so I can only speak of the experience of BRD from 50 till the end of Alexander, as well as Bismark. BRD's primary job is to DPS. Our "support" role doesn't account for more than a handful of brain cells in any given fight - read previously disclaimer - so I wouldn't qualify it as a support class from the player's perspective. It might from the party's perspective, but requires very little from the actual player, and has very little impact on play style, so it's not really part of the experience. Just DPS.
Yeah, that's a good point about SMN/BLM hybrid though. I would also equate the new BRD as a more of a pet-less SMN than a BLM now that I think about it. It's a lot like DPSing on a level 20 Arcanist. With fewer relevant skills.
Fun is awesome because it's a such relative term. What I considered "fun" was BRD pre-3.0. What I consider "not fun" is BRD 3.0. If I thought BRD 3.0 was fun, I'd have originally rolled a SMN or a BLM instead, wouldn't I?
The whole "They already did it. I doubt they're going to undo it" is a defeatist perspective that I can't wrap my head around.
Stance swapping would SOOOOO make the job more difficult, if I ever encountered a fight were it was necessary. So far, in my experience, there's only one fight I've found where it was necessary, which is 5-man dungeon I forgot the name of, but any other BRD who hasn't given up on the ESO grind will definitely be able to name for me. That's really all I have to say, which is a testament to how few scenarios there are in-game where stance swapping was a thing. Crimson, I promise you, if stance swapping was in this game for real, where it was necessary, I will not only not complain about the changes, I would actually LIKE the changes.
But here's why it's never going to happen:
Every boss, even the notoriously difficult bosses thusfar in the game, have been on these predictable timers, and in order to do well, all one needs is to memorize those timers and behave accordingly. I get the feeling sometimes that there are other bosses in game that were "supposed" to get us to stance swap, but they fail to do so because, with the right experience, you can predict what will happen, where it will happen, and time your active in WM accordingly. Even if I needed to move for a few seconds, it's still better for me to time those seconds for some Buffs and OGCD attacks than stance swapping, as the 1-3 attacks I'd get off with the -30% DPS without the stance would barely be worth the effort - and properly-timed CDs and OGCDs would be the optimal use. To get us to stance swap, it would take a boss that is constantly getting you to move for more than a few seconds, and even still, the best BRDs are still going to find a way to get through that fight with WM on and optimizing their movement rather than stance swapping. The closest they've come is pretty much entire bosses, or whole phases to a boss, where you'll want to turn off WM... which isn't exactly stance swapping, it's just not using WM for a particular boss or phase, which just further reflects how the sole purpose for the ability is to get BRDs to stop moving around, which is obnoxious.
Maybe I would understand better if someone could explain to me what BRD moving was a bad thing to begin with. Why did it need to be "addressed"? Cuz shitty BRDs could do the whole fight moving in a circle? Sounds like SE made a shitty boss to me. If their whole onus is to gimp BRDs just because they were moving out of AoEs too fast, then the WHOLE players base needs to complain. Their decision is to literally shoot an entire class in the leg, rather than develop newer, better, more interesting game mechanics other than AoEs. WoW seems to do just fine with run & gun classes. What makes SE so utterly inferior?
People get easily banned from the Forums because their moderators couldn't give less of a crap about you. Their priority is to keep that place running as a source of news, information, collecting feedback, and because an MMO needs a forums. Just because some American moderator bans you for speaking in the second-person perspective on the Lodestone, doesn't mean that SE's bad about taking criticism. 1.0 sucked an they remade the whole game. In their remake, they've done nothing but pander and give fan service to their players. I can't think of a game developer of an MMO that's done MORE to listen to their player base (before, at least, their game's tanked). No, I have to disagree. I don't think the official forums are a good representation of how well or poorly SE takes feedback. They're just an example of how one-dimensional their mods want that community to be.
You don't need to "vote with your dollar" so-to-speak, to affect change. You just need a lot of people expressing an opinion. And, if all the BRDs that hate the changes to the Job in 3.0 followed your advice, nothing would change. If they followed my advice, SE would absolutely rework the changes. Problem is, they changed BRD exactly BECAUSE non-BRDs bitched and complained that they couldn't be as mobile. They've obviously watered-down the roles because that's what players want. All the ranged DPS are the same. All the healers are the same. All the roles are the same. Look at Ninja. In most games, that class would be a veritable glass cannon. In FFXI it could evasion tank. In this game, it is the very definition of "meh". Why? Because god forbid MNKs were better than NINs in a given fight.
So, at the end of the day, it's not SE that I disagree with, it's the players. They bitch and complain about everything unique little aspect of the game, trying to make it so f*cking boring, that that's why I feel compelled to complain. That's why it's good for me and players like me to complain. Because, if we didn't, SE would be making a game specifically for players that detest MMOs. And because regardless of whether or not we complain, the other side sure as f**k will. And, at the end of the day, the side that complains loudest, will get their version of BRD.
Do I expect others to rally with me, and for us to outspeak the apathetic masses? No. But neither do I believe in a lost cause.
From what I read WM gimps dps in the long run. It should only be used for openers and when all your CD are available for usage. Twenty five percent of BRDS dps comes from auto attacks and running WM full time actually gimps your dps.
You are definitely entitled to complain and fight for what you think BRD should be. If I don't enjoy something I'm going to be vocal about it but if nothing is going to change then I'm gonna move on. Bow Mage is gonna stay whether you like it or not. What should change is how WM works. Especially if they are going to be adding a cast time to abilities and make BRDs into Bow Mages they should be doing closer to BLM/SMN dps then. XD
Not sure how fluid WM is but I'll test it out. I just got BRD to 60 but haven't geared it yet because I'm still outfitting my tank currently.
Well 1.0 was a flop and they had to listen to the players because otherwise they would have lost even more money. FFXI NIN was suppose to be DPS but players used it as a tank and the developers just went with it.
This is the part where I would love to have the balls to use a parser. I knew someone who had one once, but I left his server a while ago and avoid even mentioning it in game. A casual glance, with a bit of pencil and paper and bad math, didn't really prove anything to me. And, I haven't found any relevant tests posted elsewhere yet, but I don't know all the sites. If you see something that shows keeping up WM is a net loss, and that we should be working in stance swapping into our rotation, I will happily and truly give it a try. And, if it proves accurate, stop complaining about changes because, then, I might actually like them.
For the record: I avoided this wading into this topic until I felt the thread had run its course. I hope people recognized that. I was trying really hard not to even mention the complaints or back up the complaints until I felt the discussion had reached its end, because GeekMatt used my name in the title - which is a surefire way of making me seem egotistical just by wading into the debate.
And, completely off-topic: Why can't parsers or DPS meters be added to the game? Maybe that could be a future PoOP topic. I don't want to get banned just to check my DPS. Can't do it currently, cuz my math sucks and DPSing a mannequin out of combat doesn't really translate to real-world DPS.
Parsers can be added to the game. They aren't because then it would alienate people further from doing higher end content then it already is. Parsing is like Fight Club. You don't talk about it. If you don't talk about it then you won't have any issues. It's when you start talking about it is when you are going to get in trouble.
I think the most dps I've ever seen a BRD do in a raid setting is 900 dps. Compared to the BLM who does 1,100, DRG that does 1,200 and the the MNK that does 1,300 DPS. " Keep in mind that this rough numbers from people who I party and play with a lot.
Here is your proof that you shouldn't be in WM full time:
"FFXIV producer and is Yoshida director.
For the bard, a number of feedback Thank you. About the current state recognition and adjustment policies of the development team, we will explain below.
Development team is aware of the following:
Generally, DPS is larger when not under Minuet.
Bards' specialty of "Ability to attack while moving" is impacted when under Minuet, hard to see benefits of being in Minuet.
Unwieldy to change stances.
Due to the degree to which the above points are felt by the community, especially the first point (Less damage in Minuet), the development team is looking into changes.
They're looking to change the effect (but not increase damage too much), make it easier to switch between stances, and reduce the difficulty and general clunkiness with the current Bard.
Generally treated as hard to use/low value, development team is looking into it."
From the official FFXIV forums.
I can't check your link because of the peripheral I'm using making it way too inconvenient. But, is that a recent thread? I felt I read that thread when the action was first introduced, shortly after the release of HW. They were referring to how DPS was larger when not using WM originally, which they addressed by increasing the effect from 20-30%. If that's an old post, it won't be applicable anymore. If it's a new post, this is the first I'm hearing of non-WM out DPSing WM.
The hard to use complaint was that it originally was not instant cast, making swapping unfeasible, which they addressed by making it instant cast.
the 20-->30 increase was a result of that post. as far as i am aware currently it is a dps loss to stay out of WM for any length of time.
ie. now your stuck with bow mage. i tried not to enter this subject mainly due to the fact that i would sound like i was parroting fybrile,
but ya know.. polly wants a cracker..
i have the utmost sympathy for those people who main bard. i did so up until 2.1 but always kept it in my back pocket just in case.
however, it will stay at lvl 52 until changes are made. you would be able to hear me bitch through your monitor if they flipped the
switch on my whm like they did bard.
Managed to check the out that link. Way outdated post. Each point was addressed with the 2.0.1 update which saw the DPS increased to 30% and the WM cast timer removed. So far, max DPS is still achieved with having WM up full time, unless you can show parsers that prove the 25% from auto attacks somehow beats the 30% from WM... Not to mention the far larger crits achieved with the WM buff in a crit-focused job like BRD. Stance swapping is, thus, still useless and I stand by all my aforementioned complaints.
...You know this is the first of these kinds of discussion I've ever read and now I kinda regret doing so. You made this game sound like a desk job at some boring company!
I'm gonna have to ask my BRD friends to post some DPS numbers and get back to you on this. It really sucks that we are stuck with Bow Mage that doesn't do anywhere near what a real mage can do.
Umm the only thing I can think of is using feint a cross class ability to run and shoot at the same time with WM up. "
I actually used feint pre-3.0 in my regular rotation, unfortunately, with the changes in 3.0, it just doesn't fit in an optimal rotation anymore. I'm really looking forward to some 3.0 parser info though, and some good discussion about the new rotations. The one bright side to the whole change to BRD is that it radically changes our rotations, leading to more theorycrafting fun!
If you aint workin hard in this game you aint playing correctly!
It's fun to talk about rotation/theory craft and optimizing gear. Makes you a better player since we can learn from each other.
Exactly, the more you talk about your class, discuss what does and does not work. Which accessories and gear offered which stats in which weight. It allows you to grow as a player but also find new things to work towards which in its own right is a form of progression even at the endgame.
Again I reiterate a sentiment I had a while back. You guys do know this is just a game? You guys are aware of this fact and therefore none of this really matters right?
Of course we are, this is however our hobby. IT is no different than any other hobby that people want to be good at. Being good at a hobby does not happen unless you put in the work and effort to become good at it, this holds true for anything
Anyone can try and take up these hobbies but only those who work at them become good at it and none of it matters but it matters to that person who putting forth the effort because it is their passion so to say otherwise is a bit of an insult to the them and their interests.
Okay so got some numbers from my BRD friends and they are parsing ~1,300 with WM full time on dummies 5 minutes with food.
One of my friends say that they do drop WM after all their CD have been used and only after they have used their abilities that require WM. Then they turn it off and switch it back on for when they need to reapply DoTs. They say the max amount of time you can drop WM is around 15 seconds. If longer than 15 seconds then dps will drop.
They parse ~1100-1200 in raid.
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