Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by AgelessDaisy, Feb 5, 2014.
I thought you liked me :c
I'm a bard mostly. When I enter a dungeon, I work for the Tank, he is my boss, period. I am totally dedicated to his instructions, to his marked targets. The only time I pull agro is when the tank dies and I end up fighting like hell. Things I do intuitively are to kill the adds and protect the healer. The rest of the time I DPS targets the tank expects me to. If the tank doesn't have time to mark targets, I focus on the monster he's fighting. Before a fight, I always stay behind him, I never fire until he goes in and starts. If I screw up, I inform the tank what I did wrong.
I'm extremely careful before using Rain of Death (RoD), I have to make sure it won't pull unwanted monsters into the fight. Shame on Square Enix for nerfing it down, but I love it anyway.
I don't approach a loot chest until after the tank and healer are done with it.
From what you have written, would you publish a list of guidelines for DPS's, from a tank's perspective?
As a dps youre both the healers and tanks friend. For the tank let them take the lead and supply him with the damage he cant do. If the healer accidentally takes aggro dont wait for the tank, beat the tar out of whatever the healer pulled to get its attention and bring it back to the tank, at the very least make it unable to continue its assault on the healer, we get stuns and silences for a reason and its not just for specific dungeon mechanics.
Unfortunately not all people think the way that you guys do. Most DPS are just out for themselves to measure their e-peen damage. They couldn't careless about anyone else as long as they get their precious exp.
I did 1k Maws today and things went a bit better. Granted I had someone as DPS from my FC. But still it went well. The healer cooperated with me and I even got to use my berserk macro. As far as the other DPS was, he didn't speak the entire run. I did mess up a bit on some of the pulls, but that was due to the Healer jumping the gun and was stance dancing. Pulled with Aero, so I had to OP a bit.
I have no issues with DPS at all. It's just when they start running a muck, that's when I get irritated. Usually in PF groups people respect the tank. I've sure as hell done it, and I've even told DPS don't pull ahead of a tank. If I see DPS being stupid as a healer, I won't heal them. You reap what you sow in my opinion, as a tank I can't really do much. I've played as a DPS job and personally I don't want to do it again. It feels like I need to compete with the other DPS just so I'm pulling my weight. It's annoying. I'd rather tank and learn what it means to deal with not only myself, but DPS and a Healer chomping at the bit.
Guide lines for DPS to follow are simple, there is only three of them that I want the DPS I play with to follow.
1. Follow my kill order, this is subject to change if an add is accidently pulled and is of a higher priority than the current target. So if the marker moves, you should move as well.
2. Do not pull mobs, agro in this game works funny, the person highest on the threat list generates slightly more threat than normal and if provoke is down you will only make me waste more TP trying to peel it off you.
3. Do not use LB as soon as the gauge is filled unless instructed to do so.
That sort of works for most DDs except SMN and to a lesser extent BLM. SMNs + 3 mobs = Bane and that will pull aggo off the tank. BLM that spam AOE will also pull aggro but they shouldn't be doing that unless ≥ 3 Mobs.
Baned dots do not generate a lot of agro, they can easily be kept ahead off by putting in a flash after every 2nd threat rotation. However the summoner them self needs to focus on the primary target with their egi and other abilities.
The same goes for a BLM as well, beyond this it is just DPS being unwilling to single target so there is no excuse in "Well its how my class plays" It just boils down to good DPS and people who are dumb about it.
Technically, in the case of a summoner, optimal DPS is done when Bane is applied because it's literally free, multiplied damage. It's not like a BLM where AOE Potency is pretty weak and is only effective if there are enough mobs to make the spread damage worth it.
However, knowing the possible circumstances, anyone that intends to AOE should give the tank a heads up at the very least so they can adjust their rotation before the AOE's start flying. Anytime I play my Scholar in a light party dungeon, I let my tank know that I will be using Shadowflare and Baned DoT's in situations where i'm able and to be prepared. If he says no, then end of story. But generally, the tanks I've run with are ok with this and have adjusted accordingly.
Almost all of these issues that come up can easily be solved by good communication and consideration of the other players. The problems with these impromptu party interactions is that too many assumptions are drawn about how everyone will and should play instead of putting all the cards on the table up front. Consequently, chaos usually ensues, and everyone is put into reactive-problem solving mode (i.e. yell at other people for "not doing their jobs").
I realize that there are some "best practices" that have generally been accepted by the community. However, this is still a game where endless possibilities and playstyles exist. We all can do ourselves a favor by not expecting people to perform in a way we think is standard. Be open to other methods of play. And in the event you really want to stick to a certain way of playing, let the party know so everyone is on the same page from the beginning.
I've got all 3. Marauder (lvl 10), White Mage (lvl 42), THM (lvl 26?) and Archer (lvl 20?).
I'm built to be a healer. It's what I do darlin'. I don't heal stupid and I will give a mouthful if I feel someone is being stupid. As DPS, my concern is always for the healer. I don't want them to sweat, because you don't know how that person handles stress. Plus if the tank dies, the healer then dies, we wipe.
I haven't done a dungeon as a tank and I'm both grinding my teeth to and running away scared. What I am noticing, and this may be a mindframe thing, is how HARD it is to lvl up without support (fate grinding ect) I KEEP DIEING. So, I completely understand why Tanks get very set on how they do things.
Alas, I have had some very stupid and under geared tanks, most recently at Stone Vigil. How they got there I do not know. The DPS was mediocre. I noticed from the get go that the tank was jumping in over his head and getting himself in trouble. Before we hit the first boss (who really isn't worth sweating over) I needed to med.
I think people need to have a go at all 3 at some point, it really gives you that total understanding required to do your job properly.
So essentially this thread is a bad player rant rather than a DPS rant.
I've seen just as many bad DPS as bad tanks or bad healers. After you factor in population.
You're more likely to find a bad dPS over a bad healer or tank simply because there are more dPS players.
That's why dPS skill check like titan is murder. Simply because it requires multiple good DPS, instead of just 1 carrying the rest.
While that is true only seasoned tanks seem to know and do that.
Ha well obviously everything's pretty much been said at this point, but I will say I actually like tanking overall, but yep, there are plenty of trolls, and with how long the game's been out, I'm sure it'll only get worse. Hopefully they'll go back to WoW or something... But anyways, I try to make it intentional when I let someone die, if they start pulling before I do, I intentionally move over towards the player, and sheathe my weapon (I usually keep it unsheathed throughout). The second they die, then I start attacking.
If you're worried about being voted out, don't be. There's a good chance the healer's on your side, and then everyone will have to wait a long ass time for another tank to come along anyways. I have left a dungeon here and there mid-dungeon as well however. It took me a long time before I decided to do it as I felt it was unsporting, but when you're dealing with trolls, its just not worth it. I'll take the 30min lockout and go do dailies or something instead (I learned to also roulette first thing that way if I do have to get the penalty, I can do dailies and stuff in the meantime).
There's also a few other issues to realize: 1) early tanking sucks, its hard to hold aggro as your gear and abilities suck. 2) Just like you want DPS to know what they're doing, so should you as a tank; you should have your rotations down as quickly as you can, that's what sites like these specialize in providing assistance for. 3) Some people like to speed their way through a dungeon, and that's true for any class. It sucks, but that's the way it goes when you DF with randoms.
What the heck is "Cancel"? I don't see an ability named that in any of the DPS classes ability lists on the wiki. I assume you mean "they canceled a spell" which is the same as purposefully interrupting your own spell? But I can't be certain...
As a person who regularly plays DPS classes of all sorts in multiple games across the board. I can assure you that this statement is a blatant lie. You mess up as a DPS, and people do notice. Especially if you totally flunked out on Rotations 101.
That said, I have played a Heavy-DPS class in Guild Wars 2 (Ranger), and successfully soloed a Dungeon Boss on that class because everyone else in the group got creamed right away. I was the only one to survive and was able to kill the boss myself through careful management of my abilities and keeping myself at range. Now I don't expect the same thing to be able to happen in Final Fantasy XIV, but the fact of the matter is that in some games it is possible for a DPS class to solo content meant for a group. It certainly happened frequently in Final Fantasy XI, the Dragoon, Summoner, Beastmaster, Puppetmaster, Blue Mage, and Red Mage were all DPS or Hybrid DPS/Support Classes, and they were all capable of soloing various levels of content that normally required at least a 6 man party.
Also, keep in mind, not every game has the trinity system. For example, in Guild Wars 2, there are no tanks, or dedicated healers. Granted there are heavy armor classes that sort of double as Tanks, and there are Elementalists and Engineers that can double as Healers, but the vast majority of content in Guild Wars 2 comes down to DPS, DPS, and more DPS.
Level Sync/Cap has historically been rather buggy. Or at least it was back in Final Fantasy XI. It limited your abilities, and modified your gear to be the equivalent of the approximate level of other people in the group back then. But what it didn't wholly account for is something in Final Fantasy XI known as the Merit Traits System. A similar situation to that probably occurs in this game where a person with Materia in their gear goes into a synced situation. The Materia has to be synced separately from the standard stats on the gear. Back in FFXI, if someone had Merits, those were scaled down separately from your gear, hit points, and other things when undergoing a level sync, and a fully merited character had a distinct advantage over a new player.
As far as we can tell, stats for level synced gear is equivalent to HQ gear at that level.
Daisy, I feel your frustration.
I would say that being a Tank requires more flexibility than any other job type. Situations change and frequently. Tanking is more than piss off X Y and Z, its also positioning, managing enmity and watching the mobs for a possible aggro strip.
In car terms the Tank is the steering wheel, you take point and make sure you turn and move to get you through mob traffic. Healers are the gas tank, when the run empty you probably won't get to go much farther. Dps is like the pedals, where they can step on the gas or hit the breaks.
So as the control tower we have to be able to swerve out of the way if you're going too fast, find a gas station if you're running on empty and basically guide everyone to safety.
Hopefully you don't get Toyota gas petals that jam on full throttle.
That's a really good analogy. I'll keep that in mind when I do future tanking myself
AgelessDaisy, Flat out- some people can be butts in a group and think they can pull mob ahead of you and you as a tank should be obligated to save them while others understand the tank's role. If you can find a decent FC group to work with you then that'll take away about 80% of your problem with DPS going rouge and also teach you how to be a better tank.
Sadly you are in a minority. Here are the top 5 reasons why tanking is a nightmare and 99% of the time it's the dps' fault...
1) impatient dps engaging enemies before the tank (you see blue lines hit the enemy from behind you as you're running in to provoke/flash/shield lob w/e). I can't tell you how infuriating this is as a tank. Imagine being the leader of anything in real life and before you issue your orders someone does a rogue action that goes against what you were about to do. it's called not being a team player.
2) dps engaging "2" or "3" when you've marked enemies. How hard is it to count from 1 to 3 or attack the same thing as the tank? Or just use /assist if you are unsure of what to do damn it. Tbh how can you even be unsure though when there is a 1>2>3 above each enemy ><. Maybe someone here can explain to me why 9/10 random duty finders it's just a free for all and the dps never attack the same thing as the tank and both are attacking their own mob...or dual attacking a seperate mob to the tank. Maybe on the extremely low level stuff it's fine but once you get to like satasha or halatelli onwards that s**t doesn't wash with me.
3) Continuing to go all out an enemy mindlessly button mashing when they have maximum enmity, instead of backing off so the tank can regain enmity. A terrible dps never lets that bar get to to the top anyway, and if it does max out and the s**t hits the fan (mistakes happen), they don't keep adding fuel to the fire so to speak, and know how to reduce it.
4) Running around in a large circle like an idiot trying to kite the enemy that has just turned on them, causing everyone to run around after them...considering flash and shield lob only work in close proximity this is really infuriating.
5) Healer uses more mp healing them, and in turn generates a large amount of aggro themselves rather quickly. Cause and effect basically. It all comes down to bad decisions made by the dps 99% of the time.
After the madness that is all of the above those retarded dps then have the audacity to make a sly dig at the tanks ability to hold hate. I don't even know where to start in party chat it's honestly easier to just ignore it all and hope they don't die, or even worse they cause the healer death.
9/10 Duty Finders out there are a free for all because 9/10 encounters actually require no party coordination. I don't get why some players need to approach Sastasha pulls like a chess match. DPS can totally tank. Healers can certainly DPS. And, of course, tanks can sit in a corner and throw a tantrum, all without affecting the success of a run in many of the dungeons. Let's be honest: for 9/10 dungeons out there, we only really need the holy trinity for the boss fights. So, if DPS wants to split mobs and have a bit of a DPS race to see who's better, what's the problem? It's a way to make content fun, and it's completely tank-able, because the mechanics of tanking are so faceroll easy in most of those dungeons. It's not like you have to keep three stacks of Rend on the mob at all times and stance swap, you have to press the flash button after a couple rotations. You could seriously bot a tank for most dungeons in this game that just Flashes and auto-follows. Maybe that's why tanks get so frustrated at these things, they're job is a tad superfluous. Remember tanks: you're not useless just because you're not tanking. If DPS want to race you and beat you, let em have at it.
Of course, the disclaimer to this is that then you get to the harder content, especially for tanks and healers, and ALL roles' players have all these bad habits from the lower-leveled dungeons.
But, seriously, to blame 99% of party problems on DPS is just wrong. I'd say 50% is a closer estimate. 4 players a party, 2 are DPS. I've seen a good number of shitty healers ruin a party, and I'd say the number of inept tanks is about equal to the number of inept DPS I've met in the DF (this is totally me being diplomatic - by far and large most of the players who don't know how to perform their role that I've met in DF has been tanks - which, before people get all defensive about tanks, doesn't mean I'm calling you bad at your role just because you're a tank - it just means that most of the party-killing, bonehead newbs I'VE met in DF happen to have been tanks, to easiest job to screw up).
Fybrile, I agree with everything you just said. And now I feel uneasy
I've leveled a Tank to 57 since writing the post you quoted, Nez, and to be honest, my experience is different to yours. I honestly haven't had much of a problem with moron DPS the whole time. It seems like when I mark the mobs, the DPS generally follow. Maybe I've just been lucky, but there's no doubt in my mind that "99% of the time it's the dps' fault" is a massive exaggeration.
Do you play a DPS class often? If you don't, try it sometime. You'll probably get a better idea of what the shitty-tank percentage is. I think Fybrile's correct when he suspects that they account for more than their fair 25% share of shitty party members.
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