The Tank Experience - DPS You Piss Me Off

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by AgelessDaisy, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Fair enough, but to be honest, there isn't really much of use in any of the 2.X chests - just low ilvl 50 gear and materials for crafted 50 gear. You won't be missing out on anything. I think there is only a couple of dungeons I haven't gotten full map on just by running it normally without running off side routes and those are easily rectified on a second run. Personally I try to go the pace of the group if I'm new as I don't want to hold them up (and frankly, tanking trash is tanking trash, regardless of the background). That being said, I am usually running with a friend who has done it before or something and ask them in advance if there is anything I should be wary of. If you're with pugs I can see how you wouldn't be confident they'd reliably/accurately tell you about a tanking mechanic that'll trip you up.

    On a tangent now, I think Fybrile makes a very interesting point about FFXIV turning us into, essentially, sociopaths. "He's not pulling the way I want, he must be doing it to screw with me!", "The BLM is playing Ice Mage to troll me!" etc. No doubt, far more often than not, they are just playing the way they like to/have learnt to play and it has nothing to do with you. I think Fybrile is correct that a lot of friction comes with us getting internally very frustrated at these perceived slights and then when we actually do say something being negative and prissy rather than attempting to be helpful and constructive.
     

  2. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    On the flip side...I don't really think a dps who runs in and attacks everything before the tank and never looks at the enmity guage is being helpful and constructive. It's just someone who can't play as a team. It's like a squadrons leader saying "right lads we are going to flank them at point A on my command etc etc" and then someone in the group just starts firing on point B before the leader gives the command. I will not defend such behaviour but I do try explain to them why I think it's hurting the party (they aren't playing as a team). There is an enmity system there for a reason. There would be no reason for a tank if everyone just attacked everything willy nilly. It's not just his "fun "way it's the wrong way imo. Doing that invariably wipes the party unless the tank can be bothered to mop up and continually save their ass....and get flamed for doing so. (oh this is how tank is you save someone but get told to re-roll). It's when they hurl abuse back at you that tanks get "negative and prissy". Tanks get frustrated because dps do that the blame the tank when their selfish actions backfire, but do it in such a callous way that for a new tank learning the class they just leave with a bitter taste. When i queue in as a healer or dps I wait for the tank to finish his opener, attack his target, and never charge in ahead of them. I just am not impatient ever really. Life is too short to be whining about the extra 20 mins you lost in virtual game

    Also regarding the chests in those dungeons...Imo I think some of that gear is useful in all those hard dungeons and 50+ dungeons to a new 50. In my case before i unlocked those dungeons I bought the highest level 50 stuff on MB called mythrite xxx of fending etc, and bought the HQ versions. Compared to that gear all the rest from dungeons does seem crap tho. That gear is a lot better than the class stuff I got at 45 (but couldnt equip till 50 lol). Hell even that ironworks stuff in mor dhona is only slightly better than it
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  3. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    They’re not being constructive or helpful, correct. Neither are they being destructive or unhelpful – they are just being bad and you don’t necessarily know if they are bad because they are lazy/trolling or because they are new/ignorant and would be happy to learn better. It’s when and how you engage them that makes the difference, i.e. whether I try to be helpful and constructive to see if they would like help/advice or whether I get grumpy over them being bad and start shouting at them and telling them to uninstall. I don’t think it takes a genius to realise which will be toxic and which won’t.

    Regarding time, I take a completely different point of view. Life is short and like many I have a full time job and assorted life commitments which limit my gaming time, meaning I like to get as much bang from my buck as I can. Now if I happen to be with a new player who needs a bit of coaching because he is struggling, I am fine taking an extra 10-20 minutes to help them out because it is a one time deal, I have done my good deed for the day, yada yada yada. On the other hand, if they’re just crawling for no good reason, doing terrible dps, afk healing etc. then I have no time for that s**t. You are not the only person playing, three to seven other people are and while you may have all the time in the world to waste eating dirt, I have better stuff I could be doing and would appreciate it if you didn’t waste my time.

    Additionally, I honestly never encountered any of the DPS issues you are talking about while tanking. Short of my first 1-2 dungeons or my brother deliberately being a tard and making my life deliberately difficult, I have never had any DPS feel the need to pull for me. Not that I give them any chance, I’m usually gone and grabbing the next group before the first is even fully dead (stuns ftw), unless there is a good reason not to. I get additional enemies pulled through accidental aggro occasionally, but it’s no big deal I just flash a few times and add them to the rest of the group.

    The reason there are tanks when people are attacking stuff “willy nilly” is exactly the same as when people are attacking stuff in a rigid order – to take the damage and keep it off the others. If you can’t handle more than a single enemy being attacked then I suggest you read a tanking guide (there are several very good ones on this site), as that is just par for the course. Hell, most dungeons I pull 8-12 enemies then stand there tanking them while the DPS AoE them into the ground – there is no option to only attack a single enemy where AoE is concerned. Unless by “willy nilly” you means pulling “willy nilly” in which case see the above paragraph.

    Regarding gear - stuff from heavensward chests is useful sure, but the stuff from the hardmode dungeons is garbage and worse than the ironworks/mythrite gear you can get easily. That said, I've never had to go out of my way for a chest in HW, the HW dungeons are pretty linear and I've always found the treasure chests in my natural path. The class gear you get at 45/50 quests is what was available back when i90 was the max and should immediately be replaced with ironworks/mythrite gear.
     

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  4. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Of course I mean pulling willy nilly I've made that pretty clear several times. Also I never said I can't handle more than a single enemy. I always regain lost enmity back immediately, or eventually (if they are dumb) but sometimes if it's in the best interests of the party I just let them die. They'll soon learn once the're picking themselves up off the floor. I just prefer a more efficient method which has the best interests of the whole party at heart, so like you "I have no time for that s**t", especially if they start abusing me for trying to suggest a better method. Someone continuously making the party worse is far worse to me than a one time deal of "losing" 20 mins of your life because someone is new and just wants to get a map achievement, or some new gear. Chill out imo. Also I know how to switch targets and spread my threat around too so I don't really need to read a guide. I played FFXI for years and careered a paladin so know exactly how enmity works. It's always better for the tank to get a head start. It's just dumb for people to go making the party start off in an inferior position. People who don't look at the enmity meter and ignore the leader with some passive aggressive nonsense aren't team players. It's as simple as that and nothing will change my view on people like that regardless of how many times you defend them, especially if they react with some insult when I;m nice at first and all I said was be mindful of the rest of the party and let the tank be the one who gains initial threat. Talking of the sociopath comment, those dps players are clearly unhappy with the speed of the dungeon but the way they deal with it is no communication and just ruin the party for the other 3...so it's them who are being the ass. If you agree with that and wanna defend them fine go ahead but you won't change my view on this

    "Additionally, I honestly never encountered any of the DPS issues you are talking about while tanking. I have never had any DPS feel the need to pull for me. Not that I give them any chance, I’m usually gone and grabbing the next group before the first is even fully dead"

    I must be making it up then. It's all my fault in your head because that "never happens on DF". Nothing will change your opinion since you seem insistent on defending them and already have some pre conceived idea about my own experiences in the game. Constantly suggesting I change what I'm doing, because it must be wrong isn't going to change my view on incompetent players that only think of themselves and disregard basic mechanics of the game. You are gonna tell me how what Iam saying doesn't exist, and that I should read a guide and learn how to tank again though, hoping I will change my view again. Good luck
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  5. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    You haven’t made it explicitly clear to me personally that your issue is with pulling willy nilly – primarily as you keep suggesting that using /assist will fix the issue. /assist has nothing to do with pulling, it just has the DPS attack the target of the tank, which suggests there are issues with DPS attacking enemies you’ve not built up sufficient enmity on. You further suggest your issue is with keeping hate when you mention DPS blindly ignoring enmity bars on enemies – not related to pulling again – which to be honest, they should be able to do. I’ve no idea if the DPS in my groups even look at the enmity bars, do you know why? Because I keep hate regardless of what they attack and it really isn’t any extra effort.

    I played FFXI also and it was a very different game, primarily centred around a party of 6 fighting a single normal enemy – not multiple enemies. Additionally you had classes such as supports and debuffers etc. which just aren’t present in this game. This is a very different game which will often see a party of 4 taking on 10+ enemies. Honestly, I don’t think there is much in the way of “transferable skills” except for knowledge of how enmity works.

    I’m in no way suggesting that you are making your experiences up, however the fact that you have these experiences regularly, whereas I and other experienced tanks on the forum have rarely ever had them, would suggest that the reason you get it is down to something you are doing. If you’d like it to stop that also means you need to change what you are doing, however if you’re happy with how things are going then please continue.

    If my pre-conceived notions of why DPS are pulling for you are incorrect, please tell me. The only reason I have ever seen DPS pulling for the tank (deliberate trolling aside, which is pretty rare and I have never had anyone except my brother do it to me) is if the tank is going too slowly, and you have stated that DPS complain that you are going too slowly. To me this would suggest the reason you have this issue is because you go too slowly, and as stated, I do not have this issue because I do not go slowly. If this is mistaken, please feel free to tell me the reason DPS feel the need to pull for you, however everything you have said leads to this conclusion. If you wish to play at a glacial pace, that is your business, however please know that the other players wanting to go at a quicker pace does not make them incompetent, if anything you are the one playing subpar.

    Finally, the sociopath comments were not directed at you, just something interesting that Fybrile raised. You are correct that there are toxic players, but my point is that by treating people like they are AI or in some way there to serve you (which is very common), you are bound to rub people up the wrong way and create experiences that are as unpleasant for you as they are for others. While you won’t stop players being toxic by being nice, you will reduce the amount of fights/negative situations you get into and will actively stop contributing towards others negative situations. Again, nothing directly related to you, but an outlook that I think more people should have and would make the game better for everyone.
     

  6. Ish

    Ish Scion

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    Honestly you may of just been paired up with an idiot. I have seen bad players on all sides, some really bad tanks as well.
    Players truly could not understand or comment until they run a few dungeons in every class unfortunately. Good thing for me i have tanked, healed and dpsed dungeons so i get all perspectives.
    Healers that use push back is rather annoying also XD
    But yes just let them die if they so want to tank..
    As for stats that is still debatable, myself and others that i know went full str on our tanks and have no problems at all, cooldown usage to help healers is a must
     

  7. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    The issue with strength tanking is bad strength tanks. VIT = HP, so losing some does nothing except lower your health pool. That being said, you get tanks who are regularly dropping to the 2-3k HP region sacrificing 2-4k in HP, which basic maths will tell you, is going to cause you issues. This is primarily an issue while levelling when you are "at the current level" of the dungeon.

    On the other hand, if I'm doing level 50 Hard Mode dungeons, I will rarely go below half HP, unless I am doing mass pulls of 10+ enemies. At this point, if I am doing mass pulls then I should have VIT on as they are heavily tanking intensive and I'll be doing next to no damage. If I'm not doing mass pulls, then I can safely equip STR accessories and laugh at how little damage the enemies are doing.

    It's all about an appropriate time and place and actually knowing your survivability. Obviously using cooldowns etc. factors into this, amongst other things, but it can all be summarised with "what is the lowest your HP goes with VIT gear - don't remove that amount of HP/VIT". If you're not using cooldowns correctly, then obviously the lowest your HP goes is going to be much lower than if you are using them correctly.

    I'd also note that if you are undergearred as a tank then using (partial) STR accessories can be a fantastic way to assist you in keeping aggro from your group. Assuming the healer is as overgearred as the DPS, then the HP loss hopefully should not be an issue. You can of course always swap mid-dungeon should it become an issue and you guys wipe.
     

  8. Maaja

    Maaja Moderator

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    No, we don't know WHY they are behaving the way they are. Since I am vocal in the DF dungeons I run, I ask. I am polite and tend not to enter into anything with a negative attitude. If they are dicks, I move on. I also know that Nez mentioned he has been vocal and polite. Engaging people in a dungeon doesn't always make for a good experience. I been in so many where no one says anything more than "hi". I can chatterbox it up & by the end of the dungeon, it's still only the initial hellos. Some people are quiet & want to just get done, some are truly dicks who think that anyone who needs to run a dungeon at their own pace is a moron. One of my habits, especially in any dungeons under 60, is to ask if people want to clear the mobs. Extra xp never hurts anyone. Sometimes people want to , sometimes they don't, and sometimes it's split. Being the tank, I go with the clear on a split - even if I don't need the xp, especially if the 2 who want the clear are dps. They have to wait the longest for the queues.

    I think everyone feels this way. Some, however, feel that their time is more valuable than anyone else's. If you haven't run into people like that, you are very lucky.

    I find this to be a bit of a stretch. Unless you rarely DF, even then, I don't use the DFer very often & when I do, I still encounter DPS not following marks and pulling ahead of me (some healers like to pull, too). It doesn't happen every run, but it happens often enough that I believe you, sir, are a very, very lucky man to have only encountered it twice with strangers. Even if twice is an exaggeration, the average times DPS don't follow marks or face pull has to be at least a mediocre percentage overall. I think you play on a European server, maybe the Europeans are more polite? I know in NA, this DPS not following marks & facepulling is not as uncommon as your experience has been.

    If you've read this thread specifically, Nez acknowledges this. Though, I feel like this sentiment might be coming from the toxic thread that got locked, because he did mention something about not switching targets. What context it all was in, I'm not entirely clear. I read some, but not all of it. People who are frustrated with a gaming experience and come to a forum to vent will often overreact when they feel ganged up on. While I don't excuse what happened, it hit personal levels, I can understand where it might have come from.

    Also, I can't tell you how many times I've had threat pulled from me and had a helluva time getting that one mob back - for whatever reason - either the DPS is better geared than I or I didn't notice early enough & the DPS built enough threat to make it near impossible to pull off (this tends to happen in the highest level dungeons more than anywhere else - to me anyhow). Like Fyb said, tho, he can tank a single mob & not die. This kind of thing happens most often when I'm outgeared. When I pull large groups, I tend to lose hate less often than when I take it easy. Strange how that works. I always do my best to get hate back immediately. I am very aware, like tanks should be, of who has aggro. Unless of course it's one of those rare occasions I get distracted. I have the feeling that everyone here who tanks practices this same stuff.
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
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  9. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I scrolled through the whole post thinking you only quoted people before my eyes adjusted to this green color you chose...
     

  10. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    I’m by no means saying that toxic and negative players don’t exist – they definitely do, however I just thought Fybrile made a good point that it’s easy to forget that the people in your dungeons are human beings, not dumb AI doing it wrong, and treating them with respect and courtesy will likely reduce the number of negative situations you find yourself in (if not remove them entirely). I’d note that this was not directed at Nez - I am sure he was polite and courteous in his dungeons – and was more me musing “out loud”. Apologies if it felt connected to my other comments to Nez.

    True, and I’d note that it’s as true for those going too slow as it is those trying to go too quickly. I’ve run into it and I’m not afraid to admit, I’ve also been “that special snowflake” on occasions, such as while farming a dungeon for Zodiac Brave drop for the 10th time that day.

    To confirm, I was not discussing marking – personally I don’t feel marking is necessary 9/10 and I don’t bother with it. I would definitely agree that if you’re wanting DPS to follow marks, probably 20% odd are too braindead to do so. My comment was directed purely at DPS running ahead and pulling for me, and I stand by my statement that this never happens. I do not believe that this is luck or good fortune, it is simply down to me pulling at an appropriate rate (erring on the side of “too fast, I’d add) for the group. DPS don’t pull additional mobs when they are with me because there either are no additional mobs in the area or because pulling these additional mobs would cause a wipe. If DPS are pulling additional mobs to the group and you aren’t wiping from them, then you probably should have been pulling them in the first place as you could handle it.

    I’ve been in all of his threads, so I may potentially be mixing across from them, however he has been someone inconsistent (to my mind) in describing whether the issue is with DPS attacking multiple enemies – e.g. talk of ignoring enmity bars and using /assist – and DPS pulling additional enemies. If it has been clear for you then perhaps thread mixing is the issue. That said, I’ve no beef with the person and have been on the internet too long to get upset about a few names being thrown around, I am simply trying to compare my position on tanking with him and discuss it, as it could potentially be of help to one of us…or we agree to disagree and no harm done.

    You do make a valid point about gearing though, I was playing HW when it was about a week old – and I was about i127ish pre-HW – so I was playing with other players with roughly equal gear, rather than people in i200 gear who are doing levelling roulette. This obviously does make tanking significantly more difficult, especially given mobs hit hard enough that you really require primarily VIT gear not STR gear. I guess it is easy to forget that the gear hurdle is now also from 50-60, not just 10-50.

    I agree with you that just because Fybrile CAN tank it, it doesn’t mean I want him to. If he’s pulled hate, I’ll do whatever I have to, to get it back.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015 ---
    Ditto.

    Also, you stole my banner you bastard.
     

  11. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I stole nothing! Not my fault I'm heavily opinionated...
     

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  12. Maaja

    Maaja Moderator

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    Marking probably isn't a necessity, I find it preferential, tho. Sometimes DPS don't follow, but most often, they do. If DPS aren't using AoE, then the mobs going down one by one is a better strat, imo. If we have 2 dps on the 2 different mobs, that's counter productive. In the circumstance of no AoE, I mean.



    It seems that you are a very effective tank. You do things in a most proficient manner of tanking. It isn't for everyone, though.

    Honestly, the subject feels a little beaten to death by the two of you. I interjected because some of what you say has condescension feels to it. Maybe that was so I could clarify, maybe it was so he could see it clarified. No one likes to be talked down to. So, in my desire to have it clarified, I feel like I've been put in the same position. This statement has that condescending feel to it - "If DPS are pulling additional mobs to the group and you aren’t wiping from them, then you probably should have been pulling them in the first place as you could handle it." I do my job well enough when I'm tanking. I can't explain the reasons for others pulling for me because I'm not them. What I can say is that I'm running a dungeon effectively the way I do it. I try my best not to waste other people's time or my own. I also know that I will do what I feel comfortable with, whatever the circumstances. I don't know who my healer is in DF. I usually ask what they can handle. Sometimes they say "hit it", sometimes they say they prefer taking it easy and sometimes they say nothing at all. Are the DPS new? Maybe, maybe not. There is no SHOULD to any part of using DF. They are all in that box of chocolates, who knows what they're filled with.

    I'm using the Gridanian theme, so the green looked pretty. :p
     

  13. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    I’d agree that it has been a bit of beating a dead horse and a lot of talking as cross-purposes, however I don’t feel I have been condescending. Nez has said that he regularly has issues with DPS in dungeons while tanking and that he is regularly called a bad tank, too slow etc. While there are certainly a fair number of toxic players in the game – and the examples he stated where the DPS were blaming him for their failings clearly show this - I’m a believer that there is no smoke without fire and have been attempting to advise and assist him in improving.

    Regarding the statement about DPS pulling and not wiping, I stand by that. Given how resource management works in this game, the least ideal method of fighting enemies is in two groups one after the other as people will be running low on TP/MP etc. – it is far more efficient to fight them as a big group from the start. Therefore if you’ve ended up pulling a second group of enemies and managed to beat them without wiping, then you could have beaten them even more comfortably had you pulled them all at the start. That is not condescension, it’s simply fact.

    Personally I always tank as much as I can handle, because it not only gets stuff done quicker/more efficiently and allows me to do more with my time, but also because it is far more fun to play the dungeon in a challenging manner, rather than just plodding through killing enemies 2-3 at a time. Other tanks are welcome to do differently of course, and I’m sure they do, but by the same token, don’t be surprised if others get grumpy at the pace.

    All this being said, I apologise if you felt I was being condescending, this was not my intent, I was simply observing the most efficient method of running a dungeon. I’d also note that I am talking about “farm” runs of dungeons now, not where it says players are new etc.
     

  14. Ish

    Ish Scion

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    Well for new players to tanking a mix of both vitality and str i think could help. I know when i first started as a tank way back in the day, countless people told me to go full vitality. Fast forward to today and having much more experience i have mostly str.
    I am in no way saying Vit is bad and yes i do know Vit=Health, i am not that green....
    It is like what was said depends on how well the player plays at the class, how many enemies are pulled, etc.. The consensus is for raiding that str is actually better. I will not debate this, just something people i know who have run Savage and coil back in the day before nerfs.
    On a sidenote more then once like say 3 or 4 instances and this being hm dungeons, i have actually done more dps on PLD then some dps, lol
     

  15. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    I was trying to comment that since it became common knowledge that Vit=hp people have just gone "lol i don't need HP, that's my healers problem!", I was not suggesting you didn't know that vit=hp. Sorry for the poor wording.

    Indeed, if you are skilled enough then trade as much VIT for STR as you can, as you're more or less gaining a "free" stat. It's like accuracy, once you have enough, you should stop and get more of stats that actually do stuff. Of course, this is where people fail, by overestimating themselves and leaving themselves zero buffer.

    It's funny you mention about initially levelling tank and being told to go all VIT as I recall the same thing. Even going as recent as like 2.25/2.3 - around when I started first levelling my PLD people would tell me that only idiot tanks put their free attribute points into STR, as it'll only help you parry and tanks don't need to parry. "Put all your points in VIT or you're a scrub!". Indeed, look at the situation now!

    I usually kick out around 400 DPS on bosses with my PLD (i170 with i180 weapon) and I have unfortunately seen plenty of DPS do less damage than me. I feel bad for them.
     

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  16. Ish

    Ish Scion

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    Yep funny how things have changed
    Tanks were being called out for not having vitality and now groups actually kick you out if you do not do enough dps.
    Back when i first started i did go with a mix of vit and str
    It is a given tanks may do more damage then Bard (the average user base was rather bad even before the changes) but to sometimes do more damage then dragoons or Monks, i do actually feel bad for them as well
     

  17. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    And the situation is now on the game developers radars and are going to be making adjustments to tanks. :shifty:

    Parry has always been bad in the first place. RNG in the form of mitigation is terrible. Hope the game developers get the memo soon.

    Everyone has a different preferences and play styles and I like to have choices and options and not have cookie cutter builds.

    Looks like that's what the developers want though.
     

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  18. Maaja

    Maaja Moderator

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    Interesting jump. Nez talked about being in certain dungeons for the first time or not being familiar with boss fights, etc. I wasn't thinking farming.

    The most efficient dungeon runs are the ones where there are no wipes & no one dies. If there are wipes or death happens at anytime, something is wrong & methodology needs to be adjusted. All of it is situational.
     

  19. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Nez gave a few stories about his first time in dungeons and I totally agreed that he was in the right and the others were being unfair/toxic towards him. Likewise, if a healer is new or something, I won't go balls to the wall with tanking until I/They are comfortable with the pulls we're doing.

    My general discussion of optimum tanking is related to farm, as you're never going to do everything perfectly on a first run (or even a second or third). Nez was stating that these things happen in 99% of his runs, which while obviously slightly exaggerated, suggests this is happening far more than on his first run of each new dungeon.
     

  20. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    It's the simplification of the genre, too many options confuse the uber casual and thus are bad.

    I'd love to have more relevant choices in how I outfit my character and perform. I had hoped my DRK spells scaled with Int(Because it makes sense really) and throw Int acc for big pulls for immense AD healing and damage....sadly all DRK abilities scale with Str, even though it makes no sense that my strength affects my spell damage.

    I'd even like Cross Class Traits, that could be neat to have. Ill take improved Str 1,2&3 for major damage Alex! Or gear that gives it's own traits(Ring of Dark Dance, Dark Knights wearing this ring can now Parry Magical attacks!! As an example).
     

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