The Tank Experience - DPS You Piss Me Off

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by AgelessDaisy, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    But but they are already bad and that has nothing to do with being a casual player or not.

    Taking the time to read the tool tip and comprehension is all that is needed.

    Sadly the vast player base apparently don't read anymore.

    When a MNK is telling a career SCH how Aldo works and why CRIT is important...there is a problem.

    Yeah I never understood why we don't have armor that augments our traits/abilities further or why we don't have traits past lvl 48 yet. Feels like we are playing an very incomplete game where we just grind and rehash the same mechanics disguised as new content.
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
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  2. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Sigh...for the fourth time...I have mentioned several times about the dps running ahead and pulling the enemies first before the tank, and THEN not having the ability to look at enmity gauges as being something that pisses me off, hence why I am in total agreeance with the creator of this topic. If you can't be bothered to read, understand context, see what you want, or just selectively choose what you reply to that isn't my problem.

    Also i know what /assist does so further condescending me by "explaining" what it does...sigh. The reason I ask dps to assist me is if they start pulling before me. If they want to attack willy nilly AFTER I have done my opener when I can control enmity much better on multiple targets then cool. Seriously just stop defending "stupid" who attack enemies or regen/cure after the shield lob (but before the enemies get in range to flash/circle of scorn). It's almost as if you just like disagreeing with me on everything because you are bored.

    Also for the third time clarifying this point.....when you enter a dungeon for the first time it only ever happens once, that's kind of how it works. So I'll explain this again and hopefully you will understand it this time....WHEN I AM IN A DUNGEON FOR THE FIRST TIME I TAKE THINGS SLOWER THAN I WOULD NORMALLY BECAUSE I AM NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE DUNGEON AND WANT TO GET THE MAP REWARD + ANY CHESTS. In this scenario I can understand why another player may get impatient if they have already unlocked the map completion reward, and the gear is no longer of any interest to them. (You will now proceed to find a way to tell me that all the gear is irrelevant and that map completion doesnt matter just becaise you want to disagree with me. Go ahead I'm used to it now)

    Lastly (again something I have to repeat myself on) MY EXPERIENCES ON THE DUTY FINDER ARE MINE ALONE, NOT YOURS. I know when dps and healer (and tanks for that matter when im on a non tank job) are not acting like they should, and when they are acting correctly the results in the dungeons are vastly different and I receive 2-3 commendations every time. Maybe I've just had worse luck with the cancer on DF than you (although totally go ahead and say it's not luck because you had a different experice. At this point I'v come to learn that is what you "do")
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015 ---
    "Feels like we are playing an very incomplete game where we just grind and rehash the same mechanics disguised as new content."

    This. That is why I prefer XI on so many levels. 14 does have it's pros but the cons vastly outweigh the pros for me in comparison to XI. Although in their defence the game is still relatively new so comparing a 1.5year old game to a game that was released in early 2000s is probably a little unfair from a "what constitutes a complete game" standpoint. On the flip side of that there will obviously be many players who will just say it's still lame. So while I agree with them I guess we have to at least me mindful that game is still relatively new
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  3. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    People keep using "new game" as an excuse. I played FFXI at launch and never once did I ever feel like I was grinding or doing the same mechanics over and over.
     

  4. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Racooperii: "I'd even like Cross Class Traits, that could be neat to have."

    ^This. It's already been done though...it's called Final Fantasy XI, where the subjob system is vastly superior in every way to the cross class system in 14. It's actually a borderline joke to me. Also 10 or 15 seconds on an ability just kind of makes you feel like...meh all they are good for is highly situational scenarios. Basically just pop them off for a little extra defence against one attack for a VERY short time, or a little extra attack for 10 seconds (Fight or Flight). Hallowed Ground is just an "oh s**t" moment (and there is a bug on it that it has a delay for reason when you press it...sigh). Cover is useful although sadly if people are outside your range you won't have enough time to get in range and cover them in some fights, although I suppose that player could run towards you if they think they might die (my friend does this and it allows me to cover them). Another that has a really short distance (like shield lob and flash)...meh. Most Paladin's don't even think to use cover anyway on XI or in 14.

    Also most of the abilites you get in 14 for paladin on cross class are useless in party play imo. Take Paladin for instance:
    Protect? > Healer. Good for solo play though.
    Cure? > Healer. Not even good in solo play tbh as for example lets say you have 5k hp it does like 100hp restoration. Useless. I'd rather use a potion, than waste time with a spell that does less than a regular potion (and is paladin's ONLY way to self heal outside of bloodbath, which again doesn't heal that much).
    Stoneskin? > Healer(although they sometimes forget to use it on you at each pull lol so I bring it). Good for solo play though. Also in XI stoneskin was better it absorbed more damage so wasn't removed almost instantly by trash mobs
    Skull Sunder? Halone is way better and quite frankly you have Circle of Scorn + Flash(aoe), Shield Lob(ranged pull), Shield Swipe + Shield Bash (stuns), and your Halone combo already. You don't even need anything else lol
    Mercy Stroke? meh
    Fracture? meh
    Bloodbath? no brainer
    Foresight? no brainer

    Might I add that paladin in XI was totally self sufficient and not reliant on healer. It already had Cure 1 - Cure 4 as it's main abilities plus protect and shell, and a s**t load more abilites / spells (mainly defensive but some offensive). Add in a subjob of say dancer, and now you get heals and status removals via waltzes that are tp based, thus saving mp. or /warrior when you don't need what a dancer provides (party play when you have a whm). All jobs could sub any job in xi and took half their level so whatever traits and abilities are learned by that they got.
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  5. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    Subjobs had their own problems and once you had a main high enough to use the most appealing abilities of the subjob it kind of reduced maining those jobs to a spectator sport. XI had a lot of flaws and it's subclass system was one of them in my opinion. Played it for years, there are things I miss and things I loathe about it.

    Armory would be better if we had the open endedness that classes got and added the picking and choosing of traits. In a lot of ways I look forward to traits more than abilities because they can change everything and like @Crimson Requiem have been very disappointed there aren't more of them.

    I'm just not sure what their roadmap is for this game, in some spots its like they want to give us choices(Allocatable Stats, Accessory changes etc.) but then they make everything around these choices rather moot and ultimately super linear. I really miss the days of specing out and having it work really well even if it was unorthodox.

    They spend time on mini-games and Fc content that will be devoid of life within a month of release and more or less ignore the more glaring problems with the game. It's like "Look at this shiney new thing! Don't look behind the curtain of dead end token grinds and empty open world!"

    As for the Trinity, it's been said and I'll repeat it that every job feels like a DPS, just some have heals and some can take a hit. If you want hybrids then make hybrids, if you want a trinity then f*cking do it right and keep everything in it's own category!

    It's like watching Ahd kids try to game design....and /rant
     

  6. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    I dunno, I mean mechanics were slightly different per party set-up, but ultimately the xp grind was a bit more monotonous than XIV. For me at least. I've at least never fallen asleep in the middle of a dungeon... yet. I used to fall asleep in the middle of the xp grind all the time, especially as a healer.
     

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  7. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    Ive fallen asleep in both situations. And somehow I'm able to Tank the dungeons with minimal thought or effort lol
     

  8. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    "I really miss the days of specing out and having it work really well even if it was unorthodox."

    Final Fantasy XI again lol. You could make specific gear sets that would focus on a particular stat to increase the effectiveness of an ability, spell, and just regular damage etc. You also have merits, and job points (came after Seekers of Adoulin expasion) which are again "speccing out". What does 14 have? 5 cross class abilities (which only come from two other classes, and you can't even choose what you want from those two classes either as you're forced to choose the ones the game has made cross class. And like I said when you find that a lot of the abilities are useless it just makes you sigh even more)
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015 ---
    That is true, the grind in XI is more boring but for me the positives of that game far outweigh 14's positives
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2015 ---
    "Subjobs had their own problems"...I'm not really sure what you mean by that since you didn't elaborate further than just saying that some jobs were "only" used as subjobs. BUt that is the nature of mmos people will gravitate to what is deemed the best options for each role.

    "Don't look behind the curtain of dead end token grinds and empty open world!""

    All this does is further prove my point that XI is overall a better game (while 14 does do some things better I'll admit, there are too many backsteps for me). One huge one for me is GCD's. I vehemently oppose this system altogether, although I heard with other mmo's that use the system that 1 second is the norm, which to me sounds workable. Havinf to wait what seems like 3 seconds to use your moves is pathetic in my opinion. The game pupports to be fast paced but really that makes it so zzzzz in my opinion. I've already decided what my next 5 actions are before the GCD comes around so meh, and being locked out of a stun because of it is the most retarded thing ever. XI just had a system where each ability had its own cooldown, nothing was shared with anything. Well I remember one where dancers waltzes were all on the same cooldown, but they eventually scrapped it so they all had seperate timers. Naturally some abilities had a much larger cooldown than others but the fact is all your abilities would be "ready" if you knew how to play the game properly
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  9. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I am well aware of XI having played it for 5 years before I tired of it.

    But I would still prefer allocatable stats, cross skills/traits that I can pick and choose from a variety of jobs instead of only getting to pick one(I.E Subjobs). I mean look at LoL(I dislike the game but it's a good example) that you can spec out characters in completely weird ways, but they can work and REALLY well.

    Gear with traits or, Materia that gives traits would make me lose my mind! Materia in VII was powerful and flexible but in XIV it's rigid and ultimately not worth much to anyone(Although adding slots to Raid gear might improve that who knows.)
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2015 ---
    Both games have glaring flaws and are on opposite sides of the spectrum. XIV caters heavily to it's more casual fan base while XI was catered more towards the old EQ crowd of grinds.

    I can't say XI was better since I left the game truely bitter at it and never looked back. Waiting 4 hours to get a party in Jeuno that lasted 30 minutes and fell apart, the gathering system, the Crafting system!!!!True RNG hell, the way NPC vendors could sell out of stock and the RMT bots purchsed everything as soon as it refilled, the mass exclusive nature of even leveling up.

    I do however miss open world dungeons, that feeling of adventure finding quests by talking to every NPC out there and wandering around zones that had No Maps! I miss my chocobo from XI that I raised up from a chick(Wtf XIV, why didn't you reuse that system!) and could improve its stats. I miss being chased by mobs from one end of the zone to the other...Crawlers Nest anyone.

    So there's things in both games I have enjoyed and things I just can't deal with anymore (Xp loss being one of them)
     

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  10. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    "I am well aware of XI having played it for 5 years before I tired of it."

    When did you quit? The game has changed a lot man in the last few years. I'm still subbed to it and play it every day just like 14. I actually agree with you that the cross class system COULD be better than XI's subjob system, but as it stands due to the lameness of what the cross class system is at the moment, xi's subjob system is better imo. If they expanded this system in 14 to te point where you could choose whatever 5 abilities/spells/traits you wanted from any class, I'd be like...ok yeah this is cool. But being limited to 5 slots, which cover only two classes, and you have to choose from what the game has deemed the cross class abilities...sigh. Also as you mentioned this is before you even consider the fact that there is no cross-class traits system. It's the same for me with the GCD. FF14 is more visual rather than just reading text on when a monster is about to do a move(which I like), but it's ruined for me with the length of the GCD, and my ultimate preference would be to remove it altogether. If any of these changes happened I would not be saying XI is better, it's only because they way they have implemented it atm is pathetic and it's sad becaue it has so much potential. My vision for 14 (may not be the same as everyone elses obviously)...

    1) GCD's removed altogether, or at the very least no higher than 1 second like other mmo's.
    2) Cross Class "Upgrade"...the ability to choose whatever ability/spell from each class that the player desires
    3) Introduction of a Cross Trait system that works exactly like the above "upgrade" to the cross class system where you can set 5 traits from other classes
    4) Abilities lasting longer. Rampart 30 seconds, Sentinel 1 minute or something I dunno.

    I would also like to see the number you can set increased but for now the above changes would make the game FAR better for me
     

  11. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Right, I thought you were complaining about DPS pulling ahead of you in general dungeons, not just first time dungeons. Additionally, I took the enmity bars/assisting thing as a separate topic from them pulling. Sorry for the misunderstanding On the bright side, at least it's only your first time once?

    Incidentally, unsure why you have such a chip on your shoulder about me. We had a robust debate, if talking a bit at cross purposes, and it was all friendly and well intended. I didn't kill your dog or something.
     

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  12. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Not being condescending but it sounds like you quit the game a long time ago. A lot has changed since then man and they have addressed those issues. YOu now have a "trust" system which is basically npcs that fight for you. These npcs are main figures from the storylines and they cover all the jobs in FFXI...so basically you can have your own party now, and their AI is a lot better than the one party member you get in this which is your stupid chocobo...that takes longer to level up than anything in XI. Also exp gains have been increased a lot to lessen the grind. The levelling penalty is pointless now becaus eyou can get it back in one fight. With 5 trust out you can take on INcredibly toughs "solo".
     

  13. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I quit right about Treasures of Aht, had some falling outs and also became disillusioned with the game. By the end I spent my last few months/anon(Btw best thing ever! Bring it back!)

    I'm ok with the GCD as an alternative is relying on the Auto Attack and sometimes using an ability (Ala XI/EQ). Combat felt slow and rather dull to me in those days. Also Procs wouldn't work too well if you don't have a GCd and they'd have to revamp the entire game again which I don't see them doing at this point. GCd is the in thing.

    Also, just a thought but the housing in XI was also better than this bullshit in XIV. Everyone had a room, could add storage or improve crafting reults based on furniture (Still hate XI crafting with a passion).
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015 ---
    It's not condescending because I quit a Long Long time ago(I was still single living in a studio apartment in those days).

    But I hear they're closing the doors on XI soon.
     

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  14. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    It's my understanding - although this could just be urban rumour - that the reason for such a long global cooldown is because SE cheaped out on the servers and they have an incredibly low refresh rate compared to other games like WoW, STOR etc. Probably nonsense though given there are off-GCD abilities. I am assuming you main PLD and I'd note that it's probably the worst class for having a lack of off-GCD abilities to weave in during your GCDs.

    I don't believe removing the GCD would work. You can reduce it significantly with skill speed, and even reducing it from 2.5 secs to around the 2.2 second mark (guesstimate, I don't know the exact number) will cause you to have serious TP issues on most classes. If you had a 1 second GCD then most melee classes would have burnt through their TP around the 30 second mark. This isn't of course to say that the reduction couldn't work, however it would require a complete overhaul of TP management (and probably MP management unless mages are going to get left woefully behind).

    Honestly the entire class and job system in FFXIV is a mess. The fact they completely gave up on it with the 3 new jobs shows it and SMN/SCH is STILL left tied to the same job class, meaning you have to sacrifice one or the other when choosing your attributes for arcanist. That said, I think having access to any level spell from another class would probably be broken. Can you imagine BLM running around spamming holy, shadow flare etc? Of course, as you say, it's pretty damn weak as it is at the moment, so it needs some form of buff, I'm just not sure what.

    Cross traits I'd get behind! You'd probably find at least 2-3 of them would end up going to buffing the corresponding cross-class ability, which is unfortunate, but if they feel the trait is worth it, then it's their call.

    Personally I don't think abilities require longer durations - PLD can pretty much permanently keep up a buff of some sort as it and if you made them longer you'd permanently have them up at the current cooldown rates. You could increase the cooldowns to compensate this, however given FFXIV is a much faster paced game than FFXI, with "long fights" being those that take more than 2-3 minutes, you'd probably completely lose access to your abilities for certain fights. I remember having a 2 hour ability in FFXI - sure they were powerful as hell, but you were just outright afraid to use them. Hallowed ground may only give 10 seconds of invulnerability, but with a 10 minute cooldown you can happily pop it and not be afraid of not having it for the next boss fight etc.

    Personally I think the main thing this game needs (as I've said many times before, sorry for those who've already read it!) is meaningful stat choices. Seriously, why can a tank only have extra HP and/or a tiny (less than 0.1%) additional chance to reduce damage by 20-25%. Absolutely useless. Other games you can stack defence, magic defence, health regen, block, dodge, everything and make yourself practically invincible. As it stands, the best stat to take on a tank is strength, as at least it actually contributes to something other than a health buffer you may never need to use. Which is frankly ridiculous as last I checked PLD was a tank, not a make-shift DPS class. Some actual interesting abilities such as use the item to heal 500 hp, or +5% attack speed or use to turn yourself into a giant with 6x attack for 30 seconds would be a nice change of pace also.
     

  15. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    The only reason I had a chip on my shoulder about you specifically was because you were the only one that just kept replying as if I was talking nonsense and lying about things, kept ignoring things I'd typed telling me I wasn't clear (when I was), telling me I should learn how to tank (when I was a career paladin in XI, and in 14 all I've been doing is reading guides and replying to tanking threads like this), and giving off an elitist vibe which is not my thing. We clashed because our base views are different that's all but I just felt you were disproving everything I said just to argue. Now that you've cleared that up it's fine.

    Your reply here too is different in tone. There is no way I or anyone can get a chip on my shoulder with you for this reply because a) you apologize for your own misunderstanding, and offer up some positive comments after it. We have totally different views on party etiquette though, and that's fine because each to their own. In a pre-made group where everyone is the same page it's simple. It does get tricky with a bunch of random strangers though, who invariably all have different views on how things should be done, and usually manifest that with passive aggressive actions instead of just communicating. Granted there will be people who just come in and will follow and don't care as long as it's working.

    Anyway yeah so long as we just speak to each other on the same level it's fine. Life is too short for us to be bickering about something so insignificant in the grand scheme of life
     

  16. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    Yeah, hopefully they upgrade those servers shortly afterward and give them to us.
     

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  17. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Yeah man the game is almost unrecognizable now if that's when you quit lol. The combat of what enemies are doing iin 14 s slightly faster yeah...but picking your abilities isnt. My only issue is with that. I agree it's better that things are more visual and reactionary in 14 rather than just read some text saying "x monster is casting flare" or something in xi (although it did have some scenarios where you would have to watch say for a peistes eyes glowing and turn your back to avoid getting petrified...that's kinda the same really without the orange shapes on the floor) but to have to wait 3 seconds to use your abilities because they are shared is pathetic. The alternatives COULD be 1 second or none at all, and it's for this reason that XI is still better for me because selecting manually from menus is still a faster experience than waiting for the GCD, if you know how to set up your menus so that your abilities are all accessed quickly, and ar a fast scroller.

    Now to answer your question about if xi is closing it's doors...they released a 3-part add-on scenario a few months ago called Rhapsodies of Vandiel (that was included in the monthly updates so no need to pay for it). A month before this they just randomly called a conference where they anounced their new FFXI Grandmasters mobile game, but also mentioned that after this add-on they would not be doing any more major updates for the game, and only doing bug fixes or balance content to jobs, as well as ceasing play on xbox360 and ps3. Although these users would told they could migrate to pc for free many of them just kinda decided it was over. So yes that is why everyone thinks XI is closing it's doors. However there is still way more content in it than 14 at present imo that will keep some busy for up to a year (at least 6 months) after that though imo. It's only the really elitist hardcore players that are up to date with everything each time it's released and their play time just consists of making more relics or grinding job points to make you job even stronger than they already are.

    XI now has ilevels up to 119 and monster around level 130. all the old class gear was ilevellled too

    And yeah the mog house you refer to in XI had way more inventory in every slot. Actual real inventory 80 plus a wardrobe/sack/case/satchel all with 80 max that could be accessed on the go. So thats 400 slots. Back at your mog house you had two safes, a storage, and soething else with 80 (i forgot) so thats 320. so we have 400 vs 100 inventory, and 320 vs 175 back at house (retainer x1). YOu didnt have to pay extra in xi all that was standard.

    Also each player had their own "bazaar" remember where a player could peruse your wares and purchase whatever amount they wanted. In 14 all you have is the Market Board, which is basically the AH, but you are forced to buy everything in stacks of 99 in most cases which is dumb. It's not theplayers fault thoigh it's a bad game design. No player with 99 of something is going to list a 1, and a 10 etc. They should make it so that on the MB the seller can list at whatever price they want in any quantity(like it is), but the buyer can just buy whatever quantity they want (which it isn't)

    And actually the alternative
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  18. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    Bazaars! I forgot about those. I did like that feature as well. Made me feel like a merchant lol
     

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  19. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Exactly. to me 14 is just really incomplete atm. It has the potential to be better than xi but is just lagging in so many areas.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 3, 2015 ---
    "I don't believe removing the GCD would work"

    If it works in XI and other older mmo's why not. And if it works in practically every other modern mmo to have it 1 second why not? It's just them being lame having it at 2.5 seconds. And imo I would probably not notice the difference between 2.3 seconds and 2.5 seconds, and quite frankly why should I gimp myself of parry (or whatever other skill a job needs) in favour of stacking skill speed. Also they could make the regen on tp faster to solve the potential issue of people being out of tp. In xi you would use 1 ws and it empties all of your tp...so that's at least a plus in 14 I guess. If they wanna make it fast paced go for it I for one support a fast paced system with no cooldowns whatsoever (or 1 second) with tp regen scaled to match how it was at 2.5 seconds GCD. Personally I just feel Weapon Skills, buff abilities, spells should all be seperate to each other. I hate the idea that a good number of you main skills are shared...but if it's that's the "in thing" in modern mmo's then at least make it workable like 1 second. I could PROBABLY live with this. Right now I still just zzzzz as I watch the marker move round. I think it's better for a player to feel like they are doing something with a slightly longer single cooldown, rather than waiting for something to happen with a slightly shorter timer shared between lots of abilities

    "with a 10 minute cooldown you can happily pop it and not be afraid of not having it for the next boss fight etc"

    That's if it goes off. That ability for some reason has an annoying latency on it that can actually make you die. And seeing it go off after you are dead only adds insult to injury

    "Of course, as you say, it's pretty damn weak as it is at the moment, so it needs some form of buff, I'm just not sure what."

    14 has the potential to be amazing, but because of the way it is atm (lacklustre imo) XI is just a better all round game. Sure they apparently salvaged the game from it's original inception (I never played during that phase so don't know what the fuss is about) but it still has a long way to go imo. They kinda just hint at really great things rpg players love, then screw you out of them
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 3, 2015 ---
    "Personally I think the main thing this game needs (as I've said many times before, sorry for those who've already read it!) is meaningful stat choices"

    XI had this in spades. Merit points, Job points, specifically tailoring gear sets to maximize a certain stat. In 14 I'm not even sure if you can change equipment mid battle or whether it's worth it to do so....like say stacking higher strength/crit/dex based gear while fight or flight is up, or stacking higher vit pieces when you pop rampart etcl. If there is I shudder to think how people do it unless they are using gearswap bots like in XI. I play 14 on ps3 so can't comment on that
     

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  20. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    I loved Bazaars, but mainly because I used to afk in xp zones selling things like OJ and cookies and other foods. I'm not sure if Bazaars would be all that useful here vs fixing the MB to allow people to buy only what they need, not full stacks.
     

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