The Tank Experience - DPS You Piss Me Off

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by AgelessDaisy, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    The answer is both. Bazaars are useful. If you run past a player check his bazaar and see something you know is a good deal you can't beat that. Convenience plus best value. And yeah it's seriously so dumb that you can't just buy what you need. Well you can sometimes find some small stacks, but most sellers choose to list stacks of various sizes (and why wouldn't they lets be honest they are not going to list seperate stacks). It's just a design flaw in 14 imo. Makes no sense whatsoever that thebuyer cant just choose the quantity they want. Bazaars are just a bonus (albeit a very good bonus) but the underlining principle that you cant just buy the quantity you want is bad. Imagine if checking a bazaar in XI you see 99 scoria but only want 3 or something, and are forced to buy 99 or nothing. Then you go to the AH and it's the same there. People would have been calling out that crap instantly
     

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  2. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    I've been callling it out since day one. I'm actually pretty certain the MB prices would be more stable if people could just buy what they needed, and sellers could dump 99 stack out there and just the money glide in bit by bit. Works well in other MMO's, guess Yoshi-P and his Dev team didn't like it though since the economy really feels like an after thought in this game.
     

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  3. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    "Can I has cheezburger?"
    "Yes, you can has 99 cheezburgerz!"
    "O_O"
     

  4. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    That's the thing though, in order to judge whether it was a good deal, you'd need to compare it to the MB anyway. In XI it made sense because the AH was more or less a blind bid system. You knew what it had sold for and based your starting bid around there. So when running through Jeuno, checking bazaars gave you the benefit of seeing the actual cost, not having to play the "Raise XX gil" game where you didn't know if you were about to over pay or not and to whom you were about to hand your gil too. They also made sense because of guys like me who camped XP zones with MP, ACC, or various other food items in places where there was just no easy access to get them without having to leave the zone by slow method of travel if you didn't have a BLM or WHM handy to taxi you back to Jeuno.

    In order for it to be useful it would have to offer something above and beyond the MB and that would really be limited to either buying in select quantity or buying items that cant be sold on the MB like certain green or pink dungeon drops
     

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  5. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    Don't know why you can't buy and sell the dungeon drops, its not like they're that special to be honest. They get dropped when you level up twice and head to the next dungeon.

    And we are WAY off OP topic here.....
     

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  6. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    I can understand not allowing buying the dungeon drops, that at least helps keep people going into dungeons as they are usually better than crafted gear of a similar level.

    As for the OP, we are in a trinity system which guarantees that you are gonna eventually hate the other 2 sides of the triangle. Slow tanks or those who don't know how to position and absentminded healers irk me as a BLM just as fast tanks and lead footed DPS irked me when I mained whm. As I believe Elivercury and Fyb more or less said though, often times our complaints about others is merely blaming them for our own shortcomings.
     

  7. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    99 Cheezburgerz 900k
    1 Cheezeburgerz 100k

    :shifty:""
     

  8. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    When i browse stuff on the MB I just lol at some of the prices tbh. But yeah I would't care as a seller because I know that the money is still gonna come in...just from random people all over. I heard there is a bonus sale amount if you list 99 of something (ive never had 99 of anything yet to do that) but to me this is a pretty bad design incentive. Has anyone actually brought this up to Yoshi-P or anything? I'd be surprised if me and you were the only ones lol
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2015 ---
    All of the stuff you said also bothers me too regardless of what job I'm on. If I'm new to a dungeon though I will tell them at the start, and ask for advice about boss strats. Usually people are helpful but some times you just get those completely silent parties (maybe they don't speak english though) or those that say nothing then everyone just starts blaming each other if there is a wipe. If something goes wrong when I'm new I always ask was it my fault (which I know makes me an easy target if people don't actually want to admit they screwed up). However when I know for sure it's not my fault and still get blamed that pisses me right off. I just got out of Cutters Cry and on that Myrmidion Princess I've seen groups do it differently. This particular one the healer took all the adds and started running around. I tried once to get adds off her but she kept running away from me which was frustrating so I just left her to it. She eventually died and I suggested maybe I hold them all, and the dps + me focus boss while she heals. She said this "nah it's ok. it was my fault I died. Just do it like this I'll kite them. I can run while healing". Nobody agreed but the second time we left her to it and she didn't die and we beat it so w/e it worked. Sometimes it's just about getting the job done I guess but I've never been fond of these "squishy classes kite a million adds" tactics. The seem rather risky to me and it shows if she died, although there may have been a legit reason for her death other than too many adds I guess (something in her real life that caused her to actually go afk for a split sec)
     

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2015
  9. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    Healer kite on that fight is actually a very common strategy in Cutters Cry, so much so that it is probably most people's default way to run it. Healer casts regen when adds spawn and runs them around outside of arena while tank and dps burn boss. It is the fastest way when done properly
     

  10. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Only she died so you can't blame the people unfamiliar to the dungeon who thought it wasn't a good strat because they see her die. Like I said it worked out ok the next time around and she actually admitted the first time was her fault but didn't actually say why
     

  11. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    There is no incentive that I am aware of for selling a stack of 99. Other than the obvious fact that you only have 20 selling spaces per retainer, so if it is a "stackable" item, you'll get a lot more mileage out of that single slot by putting 99 items than you will 100 items.

    I suspect the person you spoke to have been confused about the "tax" system in place, where you get charged a tax on items (It varies) that are being sold in a location different to your marketboard. i.e. if the item is being sold by a retainer in limsa and you are buying it from the foundation in ishgard, you will be paying tax on it. If you however buy the item in limsa that is being sold in limsa then there is no tax and you buy the item for the advertised price. That is the only thing I can assume that the person meant.

    I don't really feel that a bazaar system is needed personally. Yes, they had it on FFXI, however it just lead to entire zones of Jeuno being flooded with afk people selling crap. Apparently they ONLY had a bazaar system in original FFXIV and it worked terribly (as you might imagine) because there was no way to sort through them. I would also note that when comparing FFXI you are comparing apples to oranges and comparing different pieces can be messy. In FFXI crafting was a joke (at least while I played) - it was ridiculously hard and overcomplex and as a result very few people had the patience (or the gil) to bother with it. Additionally, the raw materials were a lot harder to source - be they gathering or farmed. This meant that there were relatively few items being sold in comparison to FFXIV where you're getting constant item drops from enemies, drops from dungeons, and a respectable amount of the server is a gatherer/crafter to a decent degree.

    Regarding the Myrmidion Princess - the healer kiting the adds is a very common strategy. The logic behind it is that the Myrmidion Warden she spawns has a yellow tether connecting it to the Princess and if they are within a certain distance to eachother she gains a significant damage resistance buff (and possibly starts healing also? It's been a while). Obviously the tank isn't able to tank both of them apart from eachother, so you have two options:
    1) Burn the warden and adds down, then deal with the princess.
    2) Kite the warden and adds, while you kill the princess

    Being the quicker and easier option, I've done #2 pretty much every single time I've done cutter's cry, and the healer is best placed to do it because they can easily grab enmity from the entire room at once by healing and has the luxury of self healing which DPS do not have. If the healer died then they are either bad at kiting, or the princess didn't die quickly enough. Given you tried to grab the adds briefly the princess probably got the damage resist buff briefly by being near the warden, but given she died after this, who knows which was the reason - probably a bit of both. I'm surprised they didn't say anything in advance of the fight about it. While it's a pretty bread and butter strategy at this stage, I always check with the healer/group they're happy doing this strategy - as you say it's a bit higher risk, as if the healer eats the dirt it's a guaranteed wipe pretty much.
     

  12. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    This is going to read rude than I actually intend, but that is why "have you watched a video" followed by "go watch a video" are the default position of the community. With the wealth of information on the Web about this game, going into a dungeon blind may be fun for you, but on my 100th run of CC, someone not knowing the fights gets a bit irksome.
     

  13. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    I wasn't saying that removing the GCD is impossible, I was simply stating that done in isolation it wouldn't work - it would require an overhaul of the fighting system as a whole pretty much. That being said, personally I don't have a serious issue with it - while it is slower, it adds more of a tactical element to the game and allows you to plan ahead for attacks etc. rather than it being a blind frenzy of activity, which is what some other games can feel like. It doesn't feel nearly as bad on casters who use the whole GCD casting their spells usually anyway, and most melee have a good number of off-GCD abilities they can place in between their abilities. PLD have the least offensive off-GCD abilities, but we do have our buffs which we need to use regularly and during the GCD is a good time to use them. I'd also note that most skill animations are over a second long, so short of re-animating the game, it's limited on that front also.

    I'd also note that combat is more varied in this game in general - we're not just slapping an enemy for 2-3 minutes to get 100%+ TP then weapon chaining + magic bursting it to finish it off. I don't think it's all worse.

    Yeah, no arguments, the input lag for FFXIV is very real and that is definitely due to cheap servers. It's the exact same issue with Benediction for WHM - an "instant" panic button, which has a 0.5-1 second lag time in activating. Definitely removes a lot of the functionality, and as you say, the fact it goes off AFTER you die, just adds insult to the injury.

    I do feel it's important to note that you are comparing the game as it was after around a decade (or more) of development to a game that is only 2 years old (if you go from relaunch). I certainly think they should have carried some of that experience forward, but I also gather they're pretty limited by the foundations of the original game they've built on. Not that these are excuses, I agree this game could be so much more than it is, but hopefully by the time FFXIV is as old as FFXI is now (hopefully long before then actually) it will have matured and fixed all its issues as well.

    "Personally I think the main thing this game needs (as I've said many times before, sorry for those who've already read it!) is meaningful stat choices"

    It definitely did. Too much so infact. I really don't think gear swapping mid-fight is a good idea. Aside from being unrealistic in terms of how you'd actually fight (swap a weapon, ok, but swap your entire set of clothing...?) it meant that classes needed an absurd number of gearsets. I mean BLM needed one of every elemental staff (and rings?) - one for each spell. Of course Black staff was mandatory for MP regen...the whole thing was rather messy to be honest.

    That said, the level of stat involvement was good. Elemental resistance actually meant something, you have multiple defensive stats you could stack and ultimately your stats DID something, rather than your gear having a level and whatever gear had the higher level was immediately better - which is the situation we have in FFXIV. ilvl is the ONLY stat that matters.
     

  14. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    "In FFXI crafting was a joke (at least while I played) - it was ridiculously hard and overcomplex"

    Must be talking about a different FFXI because to craft all you did was select a crystal from your inventory and then select the mats then it starts the synthesis and you just watch lol (hoping for a successful synth(hq at that) and/or a measly skill up which you probably wouldn't get). What exactly did you find "ridiculously hard and overcomplex" about it? FF14s crafting is way more complex lol, and that's why I like it. You are in control of the synth way more in 14, and have to think about what abilities you pop off and react to the rng.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2015 ---
    I prefer to figure things out myself on my first run with teamwork rather than just spoon feed myself with a guide online. I'm not paying money monthly to just keep looking at guides. Also just watching a video doesn't really make you a pro at the fight. An analogy for that is going to university to get a degree, then getting a job but sucking because you have no actual practical experience in the job. The run I was talking about in cutters cry I had already done like 3 previous, and had seen it done different on three occasions(one I was healer and they didn't tell me to kite I just healed people and they just seemed to have it figured out). There was no "one way" people were doing it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2015 ---
    "PLD have the least offensive off-GCD abilities, but we do have our buffs which we need to use regularly"

    Just wanna point out, I just ran Amdapor Keep (hard) for the 4th time a min ago, and after the first set of mobs got that feeling I was with a some beastly DD's and a good healer, so I decided to test something. I purposefully didn't use any of my defensive buffs like rampart sentinel foresight bulwark convalescence on anything the whole run, and we beat it fine. I came close to dying once and popped hallowed ground in panic and it went off when i had like 5% hp. Okay not gonna lie that healer prob thought I was a tard but I was just curious. Usually I'd be using all my buffs, and stoneskinning on every pull. Most healers I see on DF actually stoneskin me before every pull tho.
     

  15. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    You clearly didn’t craft seriously in FFXI. Sure, it’s a straight up percentage chance of success/failure/HQ, but these percentages were affected by the element of the day, the position of the moon, what direction you were facing and I believe what elemental gear you had equipped (again those elemental staves). If I recall correctly full moon gives higher success chance but lower HQ chance, while new moon gives lower success chance but higher HQ chance. Likewise, I believe doing it on the day of your element gives you higher success chance, but doing it on the day the craft element is weak to gives higher HQ chance in exchange for lower success rate.

    On the surface it is far simpler, but only because it is a big black box of ridiculous statistics that you need to take into account when crafting seriously (i.e. dumping 5mil of mats into a craft – or whatever is an impressive amount of gil these days). Terrible system and I’m very glad it didn’t come back in FFXIV – the crafting system is much better in this game, but unfortunately it’s left mostly without a purpose as there is barely anything worth crafting at endgame.


    I was by no means suggesting there is only one method to do the fight – I listed two in my comment. Was simply stating the healer kiting method is the most common and I’m shocked you managed to go 4 runs before seeing it.

    It’s an interesting one with new dungeons. I also prefer to run them blind if I can, as half the fun of new content is discovering how to beat it, not just being spoon fed it. That said, if you’re playing with 3-7 other people you need to accept that they won’t appreciate you turning up without a clue how to do things, so I try to do blind runs with friends rather than via DF myself. This is a discussion/argument all the time that I see in game and on FFXIV forums about whether you owe it to the other players to know what you’re doing in advance or whether they should accept you want to experience things fresh. Ultimately it’s a pointless argument as everyone will just continue doing what they’re doing already.


    Well, firstly Amdapor Keep is dungeon designed to be around i80/i90. Given you stated you’re in i115 HQ mythrite gear earlier (possibly better by now) you’re pretty significantly overleveled which will of course allow you a much larger margin of error – such as ignoring cooldowns. Personally, I tank Garuda HM fully in Sword Oath – she still barely tickles me with her weak damage and I usually have no issues keeping hate if I’m in full STR accessories. These are only possible because we massively overlevel the content however, in tougher dungeons, and especially in trials, you will need to use buffs or you will die.

    Additionally, while this was obviously an experiment, it’s like any team activity – good performance by some can cover the failings of others. In this instance the healer would have been working extra hard to keep you up, stopping them for throwing DPS into the fight or something. You may also have found a lesser healer would not have been able to keep you up. To give a comparable scenario, if one DPS – say a monk - is dealing 1000+ DPS (very good), but your other DPS – say a DRG – is only doing 300DPS, on this basis you could technically argue that DRG doing damage isn’t necessary as you beat the content fine. This clearly isn’t the case, because the DRG was doing a pathetic job (whether deliberately or through ignorance) and this was only made up for by the exceptional monk. In any harder content you’d have failed as a result of it.

    Also, the healer probably thought you were just an average DF tank. I gather most tanks don’t know what cooldowns are – it’s pretty shocking.
     

  16. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    The funny thing was I got 2 commendations at the end as well lol. maybe they both came from dps. The things that pissed me off about the game the most though is in the level 50 dungeons i unlocked nobody really ever pulls hate from me even if its aoe dps spamming, and if someone does i notice it straight away and i can bring that mob back to me like a second after it leaves me. ShieldOath+scorn+flash just owns groups. After that i can just spread my rotation looking out for who is catching me up. however when i go back to the early dungeons I really struggle keeping hate. I was watcing exactly how the bars moved today in some 25 dngeon normal mode and it was annoying...basically this dps was pulling ahead of me on every GCD, then i was going back ahead on the second ws (no halone in this one). I just feel like I have no tools when aoe dps are going balls to the wall in those early dungeons, and more stuff breaks free. It kinda turns into a flash spam too which is gay. In those 50 dungeons after circle of scorn/flash+rotations, everyones bar is barely visible maybe like 5% if that and it barely moves from there. I tested it by just turning in one fight and letting all the mobs attack me aftr id opened and spread rotation twice with me turned doing nothing whatsoever. I went to the toilet and i came back they were all still on me, and the bars were still barely visible
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 4, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 4, 2015 ---
    Btw I'm curious about something...If a smn's avatar pet pulls hate from me...will the name next to who the enemy is targetting change to the avatars name, or the players name? I'm curious because in some boss fights the name of the boss target is me all the way through yet randomly they will just run around attacking random people. Is this just a mechanic of some bosses and nothing a tank can do about it? Or is there a chance a smn pet is somwtimes puling hate off me but my name will still be in the box showing who boss is targetting (because this could be confusing). In one fight this dps died as a result of one such "random" attack and started calling me a s**t tank even though my name was the only name in the boss targets box the whole fight, and the dps enmity bars were barely visible
     

  17. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Yeah, pre-RoH PLD struggles and it's a pretty rough time. My suggestion is slapping STR accessories on and putting all your attribute points into STR as well. This will give you a significant boost in your aggro holding ability as enmity is based off your damage potency, so your combo and shield lob will gain more enmity per hit - hopefully keeping you ahead of the DPS. I am uncertain if it will improve flash as I've heard mixed opinions on whether it scales with strength/damage (despite not doing any) or scales purely with the weapon damage stat on your sword.

    Should make things easier regardless though. And if needs be you can always mark enemies, although whether they follow the markings or not is up in the air!

    EDIT: RE summoners pets - I would assume that it would show them as targeting the pet, given they are targetable and it is what the enemy will attack.

    Regarding losing hate from SMN - SMN have a tanking pet (Topaz Carbuncle/Titan depending on level) and this can be an absolutely nightmare when tanking at low levels as they have pretty respectable AoE generation and it will put you into a fight over who tanks. If I ever see a SMN with topaz out I tell them to put it away - and explain why - and if they refuse I let them tank/kick them depending on my mood. Hopefully you shouldn't see titan...

    It is quite common for SMN to have Topaz out as they go with the mindset of "topaz is a higher level ability, so therefore it must be betterer!"
     

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  18. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    Nah usually they dont follow and if its an aoe type job they bring out the argument that it's what the job does, which is fair enough I guess, but sometimes no amount of flash spam or rotation spam (even with STR/crit rate stat) makes a difference. Tbh in these 50 dungeons Ive been running 30 vit + Shield Oath because I rarely lose hate with that threat method. I figured its better that i have that little extra health in oh f**k moments rather than the str. From what ive seen even in sword oath and dps food + 30 str...pld's damage is still pretty pathetic. Really cant be bothere dto use a keeper of the hymn every time i do a low dungeon and then another one to go back to 30 vit
     

  19. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Personally I have +40 STR in my tank. At level 60 you'll have an additional 820HP, which while not a bad chunk, is only an extra 5% additional HP and isn't really going to save me from anything. On the other hand, it means that I do marginally more damage - especially when solo - and have a slightly easier time keeping aggro. It's also worth noting that while it's a relatively minor increase in damage dealt, that damage is worth threefold when it comes to enmity generation. I'd note that while you're not struggling at level 50, once you get to the 51+ dungeons, you'll probably end up getting partnered with people in ilvl170+ gear while you're still in i115-125 gear - at this point you'll be very grateful for the extra enmity as it can be a real pain to tank against a DPS who is 20-40 ilvls higher than you are.

    Personally I never have an issue tanking at lower levels - although I do often have to flash more than I would at higher levels.
     

  20. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    That s why I think its zzzz that tank is reduced to flash spam (and in some cases that doesn't always work because i spammed it until I had 0 mp once, then attempted riot blade+flash spam(no oaths, no halone, all provoke does is let you recover one target you lost marginally. without shield lob to follow up immediately, theres a chance that enemy could just turn back around before it gets back to the pack to flash), and I was still losing aggro all over the place. I'm pretty sure that was not my fault and at that stage the dps has to kind of back off. I dunno I just think the lower dungeons are a pain in the ass. And yeah I was kinda expecting there to come a point where my gear is drastically lower, but once I gain a new tier of level I just check the MB and buy the highest level HQ crafted one. If this is not gonna be enough at some levels...ouch
     

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