The Tank Experience - DPS You Piss Me Off

Discussion in 'Disciples of War' started by AgelessDaisy, Feb 5, 2014.

  1. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    What lvl is this at? With Shield Oath, Shield Lob, and two flashes...I pretty much have aggro for the rest of the fight after cycling through aggro combo and maybe one more flash if there is a SMN or BLM in the party.
     

  2. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    (About to state the obvious)
    Circle of Scorn is level 50. Shield Oath is level 40, and Sword Oath is level 30 lol. Shield Swipe is level 30. Halone is level 32 lol. So for the following you have none of the above:

    DUNGEONS:
    Sastasha
    Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Flash doesn't blind)
    Copperbell Mines (Flash doesn't blind)
    Halatali
    Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak
    Haukke Manor

    GUILDHESTS:
    Basic training Enemy Parties, Under the Armor, Basic Training: Enemy Strongholds, Hero on the Halfshell, Pulling Poison Posies, Stinging Back, All's Well that Ends in the Well, Flicking Sticks and Taking Names

    DUTY ROULETTE GUILDHESTS:
    All you have is Flash + Fast/Savage. Flash doesn't blind

    DUTY ROULETTE:LEVELLING:
    You gain Shield Lob over the above duty roulette. That's it. Flash still doesn't blind.

    IFRIT

    TITAN

    Now when it starts to look up...
    Gain Shield Swipe and Sword Oath:
    DUNGEONS:
    Brayflox's Longstop(+ Rage of Halone)
    The Sunken Temple of Qarn (+ Rage of Halone)
    Cutter's Cry (+ Rage of Halone)

    GUILDHESTS:
    More than a Feeler(no Halone)
    Annoy the Void(no Halone)

    At 40 most stuff is ok due to Shield Oath
    After that it's all the 50 dungeons when you get Circle of Scorn
     

  3. Jinzuku

    Jinzuku Vice Administrator

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    I do think that Shield Oath should be given to Paladins much earlier. It's weird that Warriors get their Tank Stance early but Paladins don't.
     

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  4. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Currently, unless you're incredibly rich, you can't really buy much gear that is i160+, it's all gotten from raid/tome grind, and the best ilvl200-210 gear is limited per week so there will definitely be a period where you're behind.

    I've not really bothered with the grind as it bores me, so I'm in the same boat - having to keep hate off ilvl 200ish DPS with ilvl 170 gear. It's funtimes. Tank isn't mostly reduced to flash spam except at lower levels before you have RoH - which thankfully I believe there are only 3 dungeons below this level. If you've RoH then spreading your combo should be sufficient after a couple of flashes to solidify hate after a pull. PLD also becomes a fair bit more interesting 50+ as you gain access to new damaging combos which, while hardly revolutionising the class, does at least give it a bit more variety and consideration in what ability to use, rather than just spamming 1->2->3 over and over.

    It is also rumoured that PLD/Tanks in generally will be getting a buff in the near future, but I dunno what'll happen there. I'm not so certain PLD actively needs a buff, so much as they need content which makes them relevant again - i.e. have big tank busters to deal with rather than DPS checks which require the tanks (and healers) to be a make-shift DPS class. PLD shines at taking damage, not dealing it!
     

  5. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    Yeah I always thought the same thing. WAR's overpower is sort of better in the sense that it keeps aggo better because it deals damage. Only downside is that it's a front cone and requires placement. Flash does too but to a lesser extent.
     

  6. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    It was my understanding that they buffed Flash's enmity boost so that it was greater than overpower's boost - making up for the fact it doesn't do damage and placing them roughly on par?

    I found a thread on reddit discussing changes in 3.1 from Japanese interviews and it was stated that PLD is suffering from the current content and they plan to make TP management easier - but will not increase DPS. They also stated that they are aware that divine veil and clemency have very limited utility in the current content and will look at them.

    Honestly, I don't see why clemency has a cast time - let alone a 3.5/4 second cast time. It costs around half your MP, so you're not about to go spamming it. Divine Veil I don't see the reason it requires a cure to proc, just make it an AoE shield for everyone - including the tank. That being said, I don't think either ability is that amazing given PLD's job is to tank, not to be a poor man's SCH. Especially when compared to some of the super shiny kit other classes like WAR got.
     

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  7. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    I'm still in the process of leveling PLD to 60 so I can't comment on how useful the new PLD abilities are. I didn't realize that PLD had TP management issues? Oh well on the dps front? I guess career PLD will just have to enjoy their new flashy combo animations?
     

  8. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    PLD run out of TP after about 2 minutes 40 seconds (might be 50 secs, but less than 3 mins) if they are doing optimum DPS constantly (assuming no phase changes). This is quite a bit worse than DRK/WAR which can last for about 4-5 as I understand it. DRK's combo is 10TP cheaper than PLD's I believe, as well as them having MP using abilities so they have an easier time managing TP. 10TP doesn't sound like a lot, but when you regen 60 every 2.5 seconds, that difference between 70 and 80 is effectively almost double the net amount of TP spent. WAR of course have shiny TP restoring moves making their life easier also.

    For trash and dungeons it's typically not a huge deal, because fights are quick, but it's horrible for long fights without phase changes.

    Regarding the new abilities - clemency is a STR based heal, for which you gain 50% back. Useless in solo content (unless you can use it on choco? unsure) and in team content it's pretty useless also. It's a 3.5 second cast and will heal about 1.5k HP (so 750 back to you) in exchange for half your MP. Trouble is, that 750 HP is nothing to you when you have 15k+ HP and you're actively giving up the ability to block/parry/evade while casting, which will probably result in you taking more than 750 extra damage. Therefore it's only useful if your teammate is getting thumped for some reason, but it falls into that horrible spot of healers mostly won't need you to use it as they'll have everything under control. If they don't have everything under control, your crappy heal probably isn't going to change anything and there are probably better things you can be doing. Most use I've found for it is if healer ate an AoE before a phase change - give them a quick top up.

    Divine veil is better - it gives you a buff that does nothing, but when you get healed next (not by yourself) then you'll give everyone else in the party a shield which corresponds to 10% of your max HP I believe. On the surface, not a bad ability for preventing unavoidable AoE, however given it requires you to get healed to set it off the timing can be tricky - it's common to use it then set it off after the AoE has hit and the healer is AoE healing. Trouble is that there isn't a huge amount of unavoidable AoE, and if there is then it's usually during a phase change and the healers will have it under control.

    Shelltron is fixing a problem that doesn't really exist. It gives you a guaranteed block of the next physical attack, restoring MP when you do so. While "yay restored MP" - the only thing I use MP on is flash, which I only use on mass AoE trash pulls - not on bosses. The guaranteed block is also fairly lackluster as short of being super-human it isn't a reliable method of mitigating a tank buster as you will need to use it the split second before it happens, otherwise you'll block a basic attack instead. Unfortunately anything with enough notice for you to use shelltron is probably something you could just dodge anyway. It gives a free shield swipe proc, but given shield swipe is a firm DPS loss and exists purely for when you've run out of TP, this isn't anything to write home about.

    They're not terrible abilities, it's just rare that using one will make a significant impact...or that there is really a situation to use one other than "why the hell not". In comparison to all the kit WAR got and DRK's kit in general it just feels a bit lackluster. This is further compounded because the raid is A) fairly light on damage dealt to tanks, but with high DPS checks and B) is all magic damage, so DRK actually out-tanks PLD on both the defensive and offensive fronts. While it will not always be the case that raids are damage light and magic heavy, it has certainly left PLD without much of a place currently.

    Royal Authority and Goring Blade are nice options to have and good new abilities. The rest, not so much.

    To make things better I think they need to remove or significantly reduce the cast time for clemency - giving it an actual use in battle and something to spend your MP on. Divine veil I think should work instantly and include you in the shield. I also think they should remove the TP cost from shield swipe - then shelltron would have more purpose and mixing shield swipe into your combo for free would alleviate some of the TP strain PLD have. Reducing fast blade by 10TP would also be really nice.
     

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  9. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    "the only thing I use MP on is flash, which I only use on mass AoE trash pulls - not on bosses"

    I use flash on bosses too was p sure it can still blind some bosses?
     

    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  10. Tyo Ganajai

    Tyo Ganajai Crystal Brave

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    Almost all of this content is steamrolled however by DPS classes. So unless your complaint is basically "The DPS won't let me enjoy my job" then I am not sure exactly what the problem is. To some extent, you as a tank are superfluous as you're just a weak dps who can take a hit better. I get at your level range it is primarily where you are finding yourself, so I guess it is annoying to have the DPS classes steamroll this content without a thought, but given the age of the content it isn't really all that surprising that most people just want it done.

    You're an XI player, XP per hr should be pretty well understood, especially when taking into account that we DPS's don't have your instant queues. You may get a dungeon in 5 minutes but I have to wait 30 or more. So don't expect a lot of us to be all that patient with your snails pace.
     

  11. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    "PLD run out of TP after about 2 minutes 40 seconds"

    When does this start to happen? It's never happened for me yet on any boss or any trash pull. And on most bosses that aren't spawning adds all you really have to do is avoid aoes, and spam 123 (putting FoF/Bloodbath/Spirits Within as necessary), unless its a mob you have to move somewhere(and then you'll just be regening tp anyway)....and isn't that the "full dps pld mode" if you'll you'e doing is hitting your ws combo?
    --- Double Post Merged, Nov 5, 2015, Original Post Date: Nov 5, 2015 ---
    "So don't expect a lot of us to be all that patient with your snails pace"

    I never mentioned anything about pace of a tank in that post, or xp per hour either. I was simply just posting what dungeons you don't get Halone in because Elivercury said there were only 3, and there is way way more. I'm not gonna lie..yes part of it is that I wanna feel like I have a role in the party and not just be some 3rd wheel dps that can take a few more hits in a "everyone just attacks strat". However if the dps can actually steamroll stuff while pulling aggro off me it's not a problem. The problem comes when you lose hate because of the aformentioned no halone(savage blade does not dd much enmity because i watched the meters one day and it was a yo-yo process between this other dps on same mob all the while i had to spam flash to keep up with him, but the healer also had hate so meh)...and then the dps starts getting slaughtered and cant actually steamroll anything, and the healer has to spam heal them in the process, and now you only have one provoke but hate spread everywhere (and flash spam at this point doesnt make a huge difference because I've done it many times).

    So yeah I do wanna enjoy "role" and not feel useless, but sometimes it's just about getting s**t done so you can get your next thing done, so I don't mind it in groups where a dps is good enough to steamroll and not need the protection of a tank. The DF is so weird to me anyway because sometimes I'll finish a dungeon and not lost aggro on a single thing, positioned boss away from everyone, and nobody has died on anything, and ive dodged every aoe, and "covered" everyone when theyve got hit by an aoe...then get no commendations, then I'll get in the next one and lose mobs a few times people die, and i get two commendations. If you can explain that go ahead
     

    Last edited: Nov 5, 2015
  12. Elivercury

    Elivercury Crystal Brave

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    Technically at 60 you'll be doing Goring Blade and Royal Authority more often than Rage of Halone, but they cost the same TP (60). But yes, if you spam your 123 combo non-stop with any other abilities used during your GCD then you will run out of TP at around 2 minutes and 40 seconds. It may vary a bit because of your skill speed - obviously if you have a 2.5 second GCD and regen every 2.5 seconds you are going to last longer than a PLD who has a 2.2 seconds GCD, which is why you've yet to encounter it. That and most boss fights don't last that long at lower levels and if they do they usually have some sort of mechanic/adds you need to pay attention to - giving you opportunities to regen TP as you stated. In dungeons I rarely have TP issues because the fights are so short.

    Regarding flash on bosses - honestly I generally just take it as a rule of thumb that bosses are immune to just about every debuff under the sun these days. If they are vulnerable to blind then using flash on them might not be a bad idea, but I can't say I have every really bothered, I just lay into them with my 123 combo until they fall over for the most part - while sticking on buffs as necessary and using SW/CoS as often as possible ofc.
     

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  13. Nez McNezza

    Nez McNezza New Member

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    I just got in to a habit of doing it after seeing on one boss that blind hit it. No need to spam it though unless multiple targets of course but it kinda helps to have stuff blinded. I wouldn't be surprised if some, or a lot of bosses were immune to blind though. I like to stoneskin every trash pull too (unless the healer is doing it for me) plus sentinel, and I've seen tanks that don't do this. It's probably overkill I know, same as using blind on a boss might be overkill(might add that since halone is the best single target emnity booster I don't flash on bosses until after Halone has gotten off), but it's just my playstyle...I like to make sure I'm taking the least damage possible.

    One other thing that pisses me off it's lets say I lob a monster and immediately it uses a 360 aoe and I turn around and run out of it....and see the dps who were already outside of it just unload full attack...and get healed and regened while I'm running when don't need either. After the aoe goes off and I get back on the mob (I dodge aoes quickly btw) one of those dps has pulled hate plus the healer. So now if I see any dps doing that I just stay inside the aoe to get my combo off taking the extra damage....and put up with the healer telling me I can't dodge aoes rather than tell a dps how enmity works and bicker all the run. Basically done one I have only shield lob...it's not enough to cement enmity, which usually leads to something like "stfu and keep hate"....SIGH the only reason you got hate was because i lobbed and then was running to doge an aoe that you didnt have to dodge, while you unloaded your strongest s**t on the mob. Some people imo are just button mashers and don't even look at anything on their screen. When I run with good players they don't do anything until flash and scorn hits, i.e they wait until the mobs run in (at a snail pace)...At this point it's easy to just rotate through the mobs applying your Savage and Halone where necessary. To me people have such a dim view of enmity which goes something like this "tank is there to hold hate I just button mash my strongest s**t while tanks spam flash"
     

    Last edited: Nov 7, 2015
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  14. Crimson Requiem

    Crimson Requiem Scion

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    The struggle of a tank. Healers who insist on casting regen at the beginning of pulls and dps that are trigger happy before you can establish aggro.

    Then guess who gets an earful when someone is laying face first on the ground?
     

  15. nekohime

    nekohime Adventurer

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    Just want to say that I completely dissagree with the notion that PLD has difficulty holding hate either pre-halone or pre-shield oath. Target cycling works just the same without halone, only difference is you may need an extra flash or an extra savage blade on the first mob (which should also have extra hate from shield lob on it). Also keep in mind that at really low levels flash x2 does slightly more hate on the entire group than fast blade + savage blade does on one enemy. I tested this in sastasha, I'm not sure when that changes or if it stays that way until halone. At that point your savage blade combo is to help kill the mobs while adding enough hate to keep the dps/healers from catching up. Again, target cycling is your friend, and marking never hurts. Also, try not to waste Fight or Flight time by using it before your initial flashes since flash is unaffected by FoF.

    The closest I've ever come to having problems with hate was tanking Cutter's Cry at 38 with all points in VIT and full VIT+Parry accessories. Even then I never actually lost hate, I just had to be extra careful with what attacks I put where because the DPS were always just behind me on threat by the time the mobs were dead. Stacking STR is great for making runs faster if your healer can handle it, but it should never be needed to hold hate unless you're 60+ and your ilvl is significantly lower than your party's.

    Just because the tanks role isn't quite as crucial in the first few dungeons doesn't mean you don't have a role. In fact, your role is the exact same as it is in every other dungeon, and doing it well can have a big impact since it will make stance dancing much easier for the healer, especially if they're still learning.

    Also, on those mobs that start the fight with large 360 degree AoE (like the handmaidens in Haukke Manor) just shield bash them instead of dodging. That way you can keep hate without getting yelled at by your healer :)
     

  16. SunnyTzu

    SunnyTzu Adventurer

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    The struggle is real... -3-
     

  17. superpotato

    superpotato Crystal Brave

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    This thread is really interesting especially since I took a big break from FFXIV and recently came back. I am a warrior tank that put all my points into vit (which I now might realize is a mistake maybe...) but DF is really a hit or miss as a tank (or as any job). I have totally quit doing DF as a tank cause it caused me alot of grief and I play this game to relax from my very stressful IRL life so I made a decision to never do DF as a tank again. DPS and healers who just runs in the beginning and pulls are not uncommon >_< and it's frustrating and stressful (atleast to me) and rush in after them and try to regain the hate and save the situation. Most of these times are end game players who wants a speedrun, if you want a speedrun ask nicely and let the group decide,if you are the only one who wants a speedrun there is not going to be a speedrun. I have sat through alot of bad runs because a part of me refuse to leave the party in the middle of a dungeon when there is one bad player and I know they are going to have to wait a long time to find a new tank. Granted there is alot of diva tanks too who just do their own thing without a thought to the party. I don't know where I am going with this comment but it's a interesting discussion and I will read it more in depth when I am not sick and hugnry! XD
    Cheers and happy tanking! (Or atleast try to)
     

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  18. Joe Schmoe

    Joe Schmoe Adventurer

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    As one who has tanked in WoW and has had to deal with overgeared players and their BS....

    I think I'm gonna like it here! :dreamy:
     

  19. racooperii

    racooperii Warrior of Light

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    Just beware the algorithm isn't perfect and players with i180+ gear in a level 30 dungeon are still going to pull more agro than a level 30 player:)

    But it's easily doable.
     

  20. Joe Schmoe

    Joe Schmoe Adventurer

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    Yeah, I can't imagine it being any worse than running with DPSers who outgear that stuff by as much as 130 ilvls (in content tuned for players in i610 gear). Tanks are just along for the ride then >.<
     

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