The Whistle System, Specialist Skills, Cross Class Skills

Discussion in 'Crafters & Gatherers' started by Caimie Tsukino, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. Ny-lisa

    Ny-lisa New Member

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    if we want to fully meld these gears we have to overmeld more than 3-4 IV materia on each of them, but i wonder if its worth overmelding with upcoming patches and artifact gear/tools coming.all i did was melding them with IV materias without doing any overmeld and stats is enough to HQ any item with NQ materials
     

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  2. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    Anyone has any new thoughts for Byregot's Miracle or Innovative Touch? I haven't found any good use for them yet.

    If I have IQ 4 or 6, and I blow away 2 to 3 stacks with Byregot's Miracle, I can't guarantee that I will get it back in the end. 16 CP isn't a big deal, but if I can reach IQ10 or IQ11, even Hasty Touch or Basic Touch can do quite a bit of quality anyway. In contrast, blowing away 2 to 3 stacks seem to have more negative impact than positive. So I am not favoring this skill at the moment.

    Innovative Touch's success rate is just too low... I wish it gives an extra 10% more success rate. Then it'll be worth using, because it'll be the same as Hasty Touch's success rate, but cost 8 CP. I guess it's something we can try to use if we're out of cross class skill slots for Innovation? Otherwise, I usually like the use of Innovation to bait 1 more step for a Good on the final Byregot.

    The melding of the Hallowed Chestnut accessories are already killing me... and especially the Dragon Fang Earrings, which I made a bad mistake:
    [​IMG]
    Ok, this melding method was just silly of me. I could have melded:
    Competence IV
    Cunning IV
    Cunning IV
    Command III
    Command III
    ... and I would have saved so much money... I didn't know what the cap was, and that was the problem :/

    I'm gonna try to avoid any extra overmelds for now... :dead:
     

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  3. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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  4. Ny-lisa

    Ny-lisa New Member

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    Yes Caimie its better to avoid overmelding for now as you can craft anything without trouble just with melds or even without them .

    as for byregot's miracle the only use i have for it so far is when i mess up a rotation or end up having less than 24 CP for Blessing , these skills if you look at them closely , looks like there is a certain pattern in them for creating new rotations in available or future recipes , for example the quality progress going to be hard enough that we have to get to 10 stacks of inner quiet use byregot's miracle and again keep using touch until we reach higher stacks and then byregot's blessing , but for now i look at it as an emergency exit for failed rotations or low CP situations.

    same goes for innovation touch , i remember having 10 extra durability (beside that 20 i need for BB and final synthesis move) and only 66 CP that was not enough for innovation so , i had to use innovation touch with 70% chance (steady hand II up), it was a successful attempt , then great strides and rest of the rotation , i had only 7 stacks if inner quiet so if i wanted to try without innovation my quality progress would stop somewhere between 80-89% which is a high risk as we all crafters know!it was either that or hoping for a good condition which has a pretty lower chance than 70% , so for now innovation touch is another emergency back door for me :D
     

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  5. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    Indeed, 66 CP with 10 extra durab and a low IQ stack would be a perfect time to gamble with an Innovative Touch.

    From my entire crafting career, I have arrived at the following law for crafting:
    - If you're in good luck, then you should play as safe as you can.
    - If you're in bad luck (with Goods & Hasties), then you have to gamble. The more you fail, the more risk you have to take to gamble on a recovery.


    e.g.

    If a lot of Hasties succeeded, and a lot of Good were taken, then you might as well turn the rest into solid Basic Touches, reach your required IQ, finish off with a simple SH, GS, Byregot.

    In contrast, if a lot of Hasties blew up, then you might as well use even more Hasties, save the CP for a durab recovery move to touch a few more times. Alternatively, save the CP for a few extra steps for baiting condition on the Byregot, or alternatively, use the CP on Precise Touches to catch up with IQ stack and wish for more Goods to come to compensate.

    Got a low IQ stack? Cutting too close with CP and durab? Instead of a secure, buffed Byregot, how about recovering your durab with a Manipulation, leaving 56 CP for GS + Byregot, but just gamble with 3 extra Hasties without SH?

    The idea of "gamble more when you're losing money" amuses me... Never a good idea in real life. But apparently a viable option in crafting in this game. LOL!
     

  6. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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    I've been thinking about the Maker's Mark + Flawless Synthesis and Muscle Memory dilemma, and I came to the conclusion that Maker's Mark + Flawless Synthesis will be absolutely better on large crafts and maybe low crafts as well. The philosophy behind MM+FS is that it's not so much to make a lot of Progress than it is to recover a lot of CP and get your Whistle count down with possible free Goods. Using a FS under the effect of MM is like using Observe, except it costs 0 CP and adds 40 Progress (which isn't a lot, but it's something).

    I didn't test how many turns you get for 35 or 70 dur, but if you get 3 turns / 7 turns, you can basically just do MM WWYW CZ FS for 3 turns of free FS, and possibly get a Good for free in those which would mean you basically paid 0 CP to get one Whistle stack down, which is a very fair trade in my opinion - that means you need only one more Good to make WWYW worthwhile. For 35 dur crafts, that's extremely important as I very, very, very often got 0 or 1 Goods for the duration of the craft from step 1 to step 20. This would add 4 steps to the count, and every step counts for possible Goods, just to give that extra 20 dur you'll need to finish the craft / build up an 11th stack of IQ.

    For 7 steps, however, this is a TREMENDOUS advantage. That means you can do MM WWYW CZ FS FS FS FS FS - which is 5 free turns of FS. That means CZ is already almost over (right off the bat a second CZ could possibly be started) - and maybe for 7 steps it would be worthwhile to even start with CZ since you'll have a lot more chances to get Goods than just 3 free steps and you're not in as much of a hurry to get Whistle down. If you get two Goods, it's even more insane, since you'll get Whistle down 2 stacks, meaning you can already use Satisfaction, and it paid back for MM AND you also get 20 CP for free. I don't think we'd get more Goods than that, but even then... even one is really good, and let's not forget that this still represents 160 free Progress points if you get 1 Good and 120 if you get 2, all this for free.

    I think getting CP back / Whistle down is a lot more important than any number of Progress that MM can give. Yes, you'll probably need to re-tailor your cross-class ability list every craft you make to include MM and FS - however, that means GSM now has really good cross-class skills right off too and won't need to cross-class those.

    Edit: I realized MM can refer to Master's Mend, Maker's Mark and Muscle Memory. All uses of MM here refer to Maker's Mark. Maybe we can differentiate them by using MaM and MuM for Maker's Mark and Muscle Memory.

    Edit 2: I also worked myself a nice little condensed hotbar combination for my crafts.
    [​IMG]
    The bar up top is the 3rd Hotbar - it changes with every different class, so I picked those skills which would change with the class and I fit in other buffs. The third action that's missing there is Maker's Mark. I just don't have it yet.

    In the same order of idea, the bottom row starts with Muscle Memory, which I don't have yet. The bottom bar was first designed to be the startup rotation - WWYW, CZ, IQ, and I added other buffs on the way to fit the rest. Note how Nymeia's Wheel fits with the right side which is mostly Dur restoration abilities.

    I enjoy most the column with BB / BT. Their similar skills are north or south of themselves, and they light up when they can be used, which is good. No pun intended. Do note that some skills don't really fit in with their surroundings - I had to put them somewhere and they ended up there, like Reclaim being a one-of-a-kind skill. I could have switched Satisfaction for Collectable Synthesis, but I wanted to have CS at the left of a bar.

    The important layout of this condensed hotbar combination:
    Every skill that goes with SHII is on the same line than SHII.
    [​IMG]
    Every skill that goes with SH is on the same line than SH.
    [​IMG]
    ...With the exceptions of BM, BBrow and PT, but as they are "associated" with their namesakes (BB and BT), it's not much of an issue. Note that while FS is 90%, the only time you'd use it would be with MaM (and do you really want to waste SH with FS?).

    Anyone can feel free to use that layout. On top of this, 5 slots are open at the right of each line for any kind of crafting macro you'd want to make, as well as the very last slot of both the bottom and top rows. I tried to put in every skill that you'd be susceptible to use, and it took hours to rearrange the skills in a good way that worked for every craft (do note that CUL and GSM do not have brands, however) so if anyone wants to add more skills, well, there's plenty of free space to the right. And please don't pay mind to the numbers, they're hotkeys for when I fight, of course!
    Oh, and you can make a macro to hide hotbar 4 when you switch to one of your fighting classes.

    Edit 3: I found out the hard way that WWYW, IQ, Satisfaction, BM, BBrow, and Nymeia's Wheel are all class-specific and they can't sit on a bar that doesn't change, which unfortunately makes my work completely null. Unless you manually go and make it so hotbar 4 is no longer shared, in the options menu, character configuration, hotbar settings, sharing. This also eliminates the need for any kind of macro to hide hotbar 4 and show hotbar 6, since the hotbar 4 will also change.
     

    Last edited: Jul 10, 2015
  7. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    That's some very great thoughts!!! Thank you!!!!
     

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  8. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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    I've been looking for the current BiS items and it seems like 3 pieces are made from WVR, 1 is made from GSM, CRP makes a surprising amount of 4, and LTW can make 3. This is without counting main hand / off hand, which are made by various crafts.

    BSM - ARM - GSM - Main hand
    BSM - CRP - Off hand
    WVR - Head, Body, Legs
    LTW - Hands, Feet, Waist
    CRP - Neck, Wrist, Ring 1, Ring 2
    GSM - Earring

    Which means anyone who looked to get GSM up early to upgrade their accessories, get CRP up instead! CRP also supplies offhands for GSM and WVR. I caught wind of this a bit too late, but at least now I got my Maker's Mark. Getting BSM up, then CRP, then WVR - or at least, doing all of those at the same time seems like a very sensible choice since you'll be mostly self-sufficient. ALC is also good despite not providing gear, as glues are needed everywhere.

    This will undoubtedly change with the release of red scrips, but for now it looks like this. So if we want to get ready, we're gonna have to pretty much once again level everything up to 60, with an emphasis on BSM, CRP, WVR and LTW - this should cover pretty much everything except 1 slot. I'm saying this now since we've got approximately one week and a day until the red scrips come out, so unless one plays a lot right now, they might run out of time before they're ready; those crafts should be a priority if you're looking to be self-sufficient.

    Edit: Also, I now have Maker's Mark, and I tested it on a 40-dur craft. I got 2 turns of the buff, so it might not be as useful as I thought, unfortunately. It seems to be durability divided by 20. I didn't get the chance to test it on 35 or 70 yet, but I have a feeling it doesn't round up. If it does, it's now okay for 70-dur crafts, but for 35-dur? Useless, pretty much like Muscle Memory as 35-dur crafts usually don't have a lot of Progress needed to finish.

    Edit 2: Random thought. Precise Touch is best used on the earliest Goods possible, since that means you have more stacks of IQ for future Hasty Touches. Just a little strategy I found out, nothing major but it does help.
     

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
  9. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    I was leveling everything pretty much same time anyway, and the following information was useful too:
    At level 56, you can equip new rings (CRP).
    At level 57, you can equip new earrings (GSM).
    At level 58, you can equip new bracelets (CRP).
    At level 59, you can equip new choker (CRP).

    One important point which you didn't mention was that the accessories do not require Master Recipe III to acquire (where as the left gear from WVR and LTW do). Thus, you're right... getting CRP up early is a nice thing to do. For me, it was my second class to reach 60, and it was fine. But having it first would have been even better.

    If you overmeld all the above accessories, you will get a lot of advantage with leveling between 56 to 60. Notice that apart from the rings, you can't really max all the stats, but that's ok. The most important stats is CP here. So missing 1 or 2 crafts or a few control won't matter too much.

    For those who don't have WVR early, it's OK. Since left BiS requires WVR class Master Recipe to get, I recommend getting the Adept's Gown (can be used at level 58) before you can acquire the WVR chimeric chest piece from Master Recipe. This gown will provide the big craftsmanship/control increase that allows the handling of level 58/59 recipes.

    CUL is also a class you want to have at 60 early, because it's the cheapest class to get Blue Scripts. CRP is ok too with scripts, just slightly more expensive.

    For Maker's Mark, kotorinbo suggested that its duration probably has to do with the item's "difficulty" instead of "durability". We haven't totally figure it out yet, but we will sooner or later.

    For now, I'm not even going to choose my remaining specialized classes yet, so I won't be using the Whistle System for most things. And so, I won't need Maker's Mark + FS to provide me with those few extra steps of Good at the moment. I have made 2 Master Recipe items so far, and they seem easy enough if you use HQ Adamantite Nuggets. We don't need the Whistle System yet.

    I think when they give us much more difficult recipes, then I'll decide my remaining specializations, and then pair up the Whistle System with Maker's Mark + FS to have fun with.

    Yes, I agree. I guess if you can afford it, it's a good thing to do. However, if you can't, it'll bring you to a dead end where you are completely out of CP for the durab recovery moves. I think 1 or 2 early Precise Touches is a great thing, since it brings IQ high faster to give the next touch an edge, and since we start with a pretty big CP pool anyway. But after that, I'd go back to Trick of Trade to secure the remaining rotation. (And as a no-brainer, I'm sure everyone use Precise Touch on that Excellent as long as it's under SH II)

    My ALC leveled to 58 without me even trying to push it..... All because I had to make so many glue and potions to support other classes -___-'
     

    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  10. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    DING!! All 60 :cat:
    [​IMG]

    Crafted the HQ i160 with minimal stats :cheer:
    The Chivalric Coat of Fending!
    [​IMG]
     

    Last edited: Jul 13, 2015
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  11. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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    I'm still far from all 60. I'm not even 55 on all of them... I gotta speed up. Did you get all the master books?
     

  12. Yeezy

    Yeezy Adventurer

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    congrats Caimie!

    I'm still working on my first lvl 60. Got burned out with all the main story quests...
     

  13. Lyna Thokaan

    Lyna Thokaan New Member

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    Maker's Mark gives 1 stack per 100 progress required, rounded up. So 101 would give 2 stacks, etc. It works out to be over 40% of the progress for 20cp and no durab if nothing else is used.
     

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  14. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    FYI, the Chivalric Coat of Fending was pretty darn hard to make HQ. My Rapid Syn only gave 188 progress, and CS II only 90 (I had 642 craftsmanship). I believe the Whistle system would be beneficial in crafting such difficult items. Although, even without the Whistle, it's still doable, as shown above.

    And Kakera, you were very right about Maker's Mark + FS's true function lies in extending the steps for the Whistle to go down. This is probably more important than any other functions of these skills. I was making the Hardsilver Earrings of Gathering, and I was already at W stack of 9 by the time Maker's Mark finished. I shall edit the original post to include this important function.

    Nope, I have only ARM and LTW so far. Those are slowly coming along.

    Thanks Yeezy!

    Thanks, Lyna! That's important data you got there! I shall edit the original post to include this.
     

    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
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  15. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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    I've tested MaM on a craft with 956 difficulty.
    I managed to regain all of my CP from activating Whistle, and I got it down to 9 stacks, then I almost completed it with the Progress boost from Whistle. Then I recovered more CP, and I effortlessly got up to 11 stacks, recovered my durability, used BB, and still had 3 turns to spare - I only needed 1 to finish the item with CSII. And this is with level 53 HQ, lightly-melded crafting gear.

    There's a good possibility that HQing items as a specialist may actually be laughably easy. I hope they took this into consideration because with 956 difficulty, I got 10 whole turns of free Goods, which was utterly insane. The real power of MaM isn't on the tiny crafts, but on the big ones. Although it's still strong with 35 dur crafts... as long as they're high end. I can't think MaM will stay this way forever. It's too good. Can you imagine with 4 star, having 20 free turns?
     

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  16. kotorinbo

    kotorinbo Crystal Brave

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    The one thing that has been bugging me is I feel good/excellent just does not appear as often on higher end crafts. There are still times I get plenty and my whistle gets into the lower numbers, but it fairly regularly does not even go below 10 stacks on 70 durability crafts. I know this is 99% me being delusional most likely, but it seems to me they are promoting the usage of those delineations for statuses.

    Not really liking Muscle Memory, especially as a cross class. Maybe some day when crafts get more difficult, but then I would rather push an additional cross class slot for Maker's Mark and Flawless Synthesis. For the crafts needing less progress, I still like the brands better. 21 CP to one shot a 35 durability is worth it, and it is not gated by cross classes. I believe GSM/ALC/CUL do not have them, but GSM has Maker's Mark built in, and ALC/CUL have plenty of slots for cross classing.

    Marron Glace is so amazing. The materials are really easy to get, and it is level 59 (?) so you get a lot of scrips out of it. Really good food for casters as well.
     

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  17. Caimie Tsukino

    Caimie Tsukino Realm Scribe

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    I played a bit with the Name+brands, but unfortunately botched something instead of one-shotting it. :testify:
    It acts similar to Ingen2 except at a lost cost of CP, and should be very handy if it's sufficient to one-shot something... as long as it does one-shot it... I shall edit my first post to include these as well.

    Muscle Memory is too rigid... It's good at what it does, but you can't do more than that. I still use it for some high level 70 durab items. What's good about it is fidelity. For that tiny 6 CP, you can be sure to get a chunk of progress done at 100% success rate. You don't have to think about CZ/Whistles/Tricks, or worry about some Flawless Syn failing at 90%. It is great if it provides like 250-ish to 300 progress, which usually is much more than CS II alone. However, it is practically useless for anything 35 or 40 durab since their difficulty are usually too low for Muscle Mem to be effective. Muscle Mem is also limited to the first step. So if the item is VERY difficult (like the Chivalric Coat), it's also ineffective, because you can't use it again even though your remaining progress is still having a gigantic 700-ish after the first step.
     

  18. Doc Wagon

    Doc Wagon Adventurer

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    I'm not a fan of the adept pieces after comparing against the L55 with moderate (tier 3 and below) melds. I feel your scrip is better spent on saving for your master books and the mats you have to purchase with them (bouillon cubes...grrr)

    I think if you don't have WVR leveled to around 53 or so, and/or don't want to purchase the Lv 55 crafted chest piece, then the Adept chest can be helpful and possibly worth it if your swimming in scrip. Otherwise, with moderate over melds, you can get similar stats plus extra CP. What you are lacking on the chest can be made up on other pieces and with skill. At least that's my feeling so far, though I haven't tried making any 60 items yet, so that 11 craft and 2 control I'm missing may end up making a difference, but I feel fairly confident.
     

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  19. Doc Wagon

    Doc Wagon Adventurer

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    Grats on all 60!

    I'm getting there slowly but surely. BSM/CUL are 56 with the rest at 55. If I could stay focused, and did more than 3-5 leaves a day, I'd prob have a few 60's, by now. [​IMG]
     

  20. Kakera Kiseki

    Kakera Kiseki Adventurer

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    I'm seriously not hot to the idea of buying any Adept piece other than the chestpiece. The others make me lose Craftsmanship from tiny melds plus CP, and all of those I kind of still do want, even if I gain a bit of control - and that's a marginal gain too from 53 HQ + light melds. However, the adept chestpiece got me around 40 craftsmanship and 13 control for the cost of 2 CP, so I found that more than acceptable.

    Of course, when my WVR gets to 60, I'll replace all of those with the current BiS, and LTW as well, but I don't foresee that happening for a while... A few days, really.
     

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